{ the women of Numb3rs - yes, again. }

[delga]

edit (27July08). Denz pointed out to me that that I should probably put a note up here about metafandom. In short: no, thanks.

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Fuck me, I didn't want to get into this, especially not tonight, but after this post I feel like I should stick to my guns and say what I mean.

So I read a fic, and I made a comment that basically said that I felt that choosing to kill a female character off in lieu of actual plot was poor form, and I'm still being vague because at the end of the day (a) the implications of the fic were unintentional and (b) I do have a lot of respect for the author, their talents and their love for the fandom.

But. But I'm calling people out. If there is an avenue open for feedback, then, yes, fanfic writers, I am going to use it. No, I'm not innocent of this bullshit myself - I know that; I've copped to that; I hold myself as accountable as the next person.

Feel free to leave comments here, or to email me about what you think about fandom's attitudes to women: delgaserasca @gmail .com. And if you know which fic I'm talking about, all the better. If you disagree with me, all the better. I'm open to hearing about what you think. I would rather have an intelligent conversation with you about why you think it's okay than just sit here and not say anything. Because I hate this. I hate that what pushed me out of a fandom that I adored was an inability for that fandom to respect all of its members. And just because it's unconscious doesn't mean that it's okay! To me the biggest issues we face in terms of sexism, racism and homophobia today are the ones that are silent - the ones that people don't notice, the ones that they're unconscious of, and I honestly believe that it's better to start talking about this stuff - that it's better to step on a few toes and say something - than it is to let it go on in quiet. No harm was meant by the fic that I read this evening, but harm was felt. It is not okay.

And by the by, as much as I enjoyed Dr Horrible (and I really, truly did), I felt the ending to that was bad form, too. Fuck me, I said it.

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edit: emmademarais has graciously opened her fic up for discussion. You can find the series, Seven Deadly Sins, here.

Comments

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

.... Did the show kill off Amita or did a fic? :confused:

Either way, yeah. I love writers like Whedon, but I hate that they feel the need to kill off their women. And, call me crazy, but I think women die much more often than men on TV.

That said, women like Amita and Whedon's Penny? I am not sad to see them go, and that's a slight against the writers more than anything. I only watched a few seasons of Numb3rs, but I always hated Amita because she was the obligatory love interest. I remember at the end S1 or maybe th beginning of S2, Amita had a chance to go to the East Coast for a really cushy job. And she turned it down because of Charlie. I was so unbelievably pissed off about that. With Penny, she was nothing more than a plot device to get Billy to finally become Dr. Horrible. I loved DHSALB, but the fact that Joss expected us to give a damn about a girl with no personality was... ugh. Compare Penny (a one-sided personality) to Billy (two or three sides), or, hell, even Hammer (two-sided). There's nothing there to care about.

Yeah, rant rant rant, I hate TV women. I'm wracking my brain to think of any I don't loathe... NCIS's Ziva, Abbey, and Kate. Firefly's gals. due South's Frannie (later seasons, when she was a take-charge gal). Virginia from The Tenth Kingdom. There may be a few more, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

As a bonus? I'm a video gamer, which is one of the most objectifying, sexist communities ever. They make modern TV look feminist. :p

For all the bitching I did for DHSAB, I still rock the hell out to the tunes. "Brand New Day", "I Cannot Believe My Eyes", "Slipping".... ♥

On the other hand, I can't stand Numb3rs. I vaguely miss it. Megan was cool, as was Larry and David... :3

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

A fic killed off Liz (the author has given me permission to to name her; you can find the series here (http://emmademarais.livejournal.com/2008/06/27/)).

I am not sad to see them go, and that's a slight against the writers more than anything.
This is related to my point which is that half the problem is that female characters are often established as props not characters, and that fandom builds on the source material. But I also feel that if fandom can fill in other holes (backstory, for example) then fandom can step up and turn these women into 3-D characters, you know? Which is to say, I can see why you feel that way because I feel that way too. (I'm still rankled at Amita's decision! Penny was not a character!)

[As an aside: I love the NCIS women, I think it's obvious that I do, and I have more leeway for that show because a lot of the time it's aware of its own misogyny which it uses ironically (the recurring sensitivity training plot line, lols) but fuck if Kate didn't get the harsh end of that treatment sometimes.]

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

Wow. I have no clue who that is. :lives back in S2 land, lalalala:

See, I would love to write characters that lack Y chromosomes, but I'm such a huge stickler for characterization, I can't just make stuff up. I need canon to at least point me in the right direction. Since I'm getting back into Psych, I may try my hand at Juliet (who I adore, especially in S2, she's turning out great), but otherwise? I stick to the guys. It makes me sad sometimes. :(

They got rid of Megan? Ugh. Just ugh.

[inflightdata.livejournal.com]

Kate was awesome, but one of the things that annoys me about her death is the fact that she could have killed Ari when she had the opportunity - in 'Bete Noire' she acknowledges that shge got close enough to Ari to slash him with a scalpel (it's one of my favourite scenes actually), and yet she doesn't. Her explanation? He ha "kind eyes". And as we all know, at the end of 'Twilight'. . . D:

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

See, Kate's characterisation annoys me on that basic contradictory level: she was supposedly a protector of the President, but she was also shown repeatedly to be no good at that job. She was bright and figured things out! She got scuppered by other things.

But! Kate's relationship with Ari is so. On the one hand, yes, demeaning, because the show in no way goes in to straighten her out. But I think there are so many levels of perversity in that relationship. She hates Ari; she's attracted to him; she's conflicted by her attraction to him. Ari is attracted to her; he is disgusted by her; he's disgusted by his attraction to her (making her an interesting mark to kill, too, because at that point it's not just about Jethro - at that point it's about how much Ari loathes himself. Which. Holy fuck, that's insane!)

I, too, hate that his eyes bullshit, but what I can't figure is if that's actually what she thought, or if she couldn't tell Jethro any different. Unfortunately the show plays it like the first explanation (fuck me, but isn't Twilight one of the weirdest, nonsensical finales ever? I had to watch it thrice before I could even work out what was going on. It's like Ari took her to a terrorists' tea party, wtf).

edit, like, a year later: I didn't mean Twilight. I meant Reveille. Reveille is a weird season finale.

[inflightdata.livejournal.com]

Yeah, first time I saw 'Reveille' I was really shocked at the ending - I was like, what? That can't be the ending, what the hell just happened?

I've had this vaguely Kate/Ari fanfic on my hard-drive for ages and this is one of the reasons why I haven't finished it yet - there's so much in the relationship that whatever I write, I know I'm fucking it up somehow. You know what I mean? So many layers and there's always something to miss. Also, my sister thinks I'm disgusting for thinking Kate/Ari is hot.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

So many layers and there's always something to miss.
Ugh, YES. I concur. (But. If you were to write/post it? I wouldn't be appalled. !)

my sister thinks I'm disgusting for thinking Kate/Ari is hot.
lols, so does mine. But as I tried to explain, they think it's disgusting too. That doesn't stop their mutual attraction. (Why yes, I'm quite happy to speak on behalf of both Kate Todd and Ari Haswari.)