{ the women of Numb3rs - yes, again. }

[delga]

edit (27July08). Denz pointed out to me that that I should probably put a note up here about metafandom. In short: no, thanks.

--

Fuck me, I didn't want to get into this, especially not tonight, but after this post I feel like I should stick to my guns and say what I mean.

So I read a fic, and I made a comment that basically said that I felt that choosing to kill a female character off in lieu of actual plot was poor form, and I'm still being vague because at the end of the day (a) the implications of the fic were unintentional and (b) I do have a lot of respect for the author, their talents and their love for the fandom.

But. But I'm calling people out. If there is an avenue open for feedback, then, yes, fanfic writers, I am going to use it. No, I'm not innocent of this bullshit myself - I know that; I've copped to that; I hold myself as accountable as the next person.

Feel free to leave comments here, or to email me about what you think about fandom's attitudes to women: delgaserasca @gmail .com. And if you know which fic I'm talking about, all the better. If you disagree with me, all the better. I'm open to hearing about what you think. I would rather have an intelligent conversation with you about why you think it's okay than just sit here and not say anything. Because I hate this. I hate that what pushed me out of a fandom that I adored was an inability for that fandom to respect all of its members. And just because it's unconscious doesn't mean that it's okay! To me the biggest issues we face in terms of sexism, racism and homophobia today are the ones that are silent - the ones that people don't notice, the ones that they're unconscious of, and I honestly believe that it's better to start talking about this stuff - that it's better to step on a few toes and say something - than it is to let it go on in quiet. No harm was meant by the fic that I read this evening, but harm was felt. It is not okay.

And by the by, as much as I enjoyed Dr Horrible (and I really, truly did), I felt the ending to that was bad form, too. Fuck me, I said it.

--

edit: emmademarais has graciously opened her fic up for discussion. You can find the series, Seven Deadly Sins, here.

Comments

[twincy.livejournal.com]

Dr Horrible went swiftly and definitively downhill the moment Penny set eyes on Captain Hammer. Which says enough, really.

[lucia-tanaka.livejournal.com]

.... Did the show kill off Amita or did a fic? :confused:

Either way, yeah. I love writers like Whedon, but I hate that they feel the need to kill off their women. And, call me crazy, but I think women die much more often than men on TV.

That said, women like Amita and Whedon's Penny? I am not sad to see them go, and that's a slight against the writers more than anything. I only watched a few seasons of Numb3rs, but I always hated Amita because she was the obligatory love interest. I remember at the end S1 or maybe th beginning of S2, Amita had a chance to go to the East Coast for a really cushy job. And she turned it down because of Charlie. I was so unbelievably pissed off about that. With Penny, she was nothing more than a plot device to get Billy to finally become Dr. Horrible. I loved DHSALB, but the fact that Joss expected us to give a damn about a girl with no personality was... ugh. Compare Penny (a one-sided personality) to Billy (two or three sides), or, hell, even Hammer (two-sided). There's nothing there to care about.

Yeah, rant rant rant, I hate TV women. I'm wracking my brain to think of any I don't loathe... NCIS's Ziva, Abbey, and Kate. Firefly's gals. due South's Frannie (later seasons, when she was a take-charge gal). Virginia from The Tenth Kingdom. There may be a few more, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

As a bonus? I'm a video gamer, which is one of the most objectifying, sexist communities ever. They make modern TV look feminist. :p

For all the bitching I did for DHSAB, I still rock the hell out to the tunes. "Brand New Day", "I Cannot Believe My Eyes", "Slipping".... ♥

On the other hand, I can't stand Numb3rs. I vaguely miss it. Megan was cool, as was Larry and David... :3

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

A fic killed off Liz (the author has given me permission to to name her; you can find the series here (http://emmademarais.livejournal.com/2008/06/27/)).

I am not sad to see them go, and that's a slight against the writers more than anything.
This is related to my point which is that half the problem is that female characters are often established as props not characters, and that fandom builds on the source material. But I also feel that if fandom can fill in other holes (backstory, for example) then fandom can step up and turn these women into 3-D characters, you know? Which is to say, I can see why you feel that way because I feel that way too. (I'm still rankled at Amita's decision! Penny was not a character!)

[As an aside: I love the NCIS women, I think it's obvious that I do, and I have more leeway for that show because a lot of the time it's aware of its own misogyny which it uses ironically (the recurring sensitivity training plot line, lols) but fuck if Kate didn't get the harsh end of that treatment sometimes.]

[inflightdata.livejournal.com]

Kate was awesome, but one of the things that annoys me about her death is the fact that she could have killed Ari when she had the opportunity - in 'Bete Noire' she acknowledges that shge got close enough to Ari to slash him with a scalpel (it's one of my favourite scenes actually), and yet she doesn't. Her explanation? He ha "kind eyes". And as we all know, at the end of 'Twilight'. . . D:

[emmademarais.livejournal.com]

M,

Feel free to post a link to my fic and discuss it openly. You know, and said as such, that there was no malice or intention on my part and I think my record of writing the women of Numb3rs can stand on its own and bear scrutiny.

I'm not so big that I can't take criticism and I'm feminist enough to know that debate is important for the issues it can illuminate.

So go ahead, use my fic as a launching point for discussion. Pick it to shreds, pick me to shreds. It means a lot to you and since you mean a lot to me I don't want you to feel constrained about something you feel so passionate about.

I'll even stay out of the debate if that would be helpful, although I'll surely watch.

-Emma

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Three things:

(a) Thank you, truly, because my point here isn't to pick bones with you specifically;

(b) I didn't want to name you originally, because I meant what I said - I know that you love this fandom, and I know that what I read from the fic was tangential to your intentions;

and (c) a discussion isn't a discussion if we're cutting each other off at the knees! Which is to say: of course you should participate. It's only your right to defend what you've written.

[melissima.livejournal.com]

Hi Delga! This is too fascinating a conversation to stay out of, IMO. You make interesting points here!

I do have to pick at one of them, though.

I think it's fandom's responsibility to say, hang on, we feel that female characters are entirely of value and constitute more than girlfriends, or emotional plot propulsion devices. I think it's a cop out to pick Liz or Millie for the most heinous of the violent crimes you've depicted because you don't have to deal with the emotional fall out of killing off a primary character but you still the death.

I respect your opinion, but I don't agree that it's our responsibility as fans, as writers or as women to "say, hang on, we feel that female characters are entirely of value and constitute more than girlfriends, or emotional plot propulsion devices" every time we speak.

Do we say that? Damn straight we do. Emma does. But the fact that the show often does not handle women characters well does not gag us. It does not prevent us from telling other stories.

It's something I am struggling with in my own writing right now--albeit from the standpoint of having a disability instead of being a woman. I keep getting caught up in wanting my wheelchair-using protagonist to not show any weakness or touch any stereotype without trouncing it. Good plan? Um, no. If I did that she'd be the world's worst Mary Sue for one thing.

I love awesome fist-pumping anthems of women-power (and people-with-disabilities power, for that matter) and those stories are a good thing. But there are a lot of other stories to tell about times when people are small and petty, make mistakes, get victimized, or are weak. Those stories are still valuable. They reflect the truth that we are all flawed and locked into our own point of view at any given moment. I wonder how we can tell them without losing the reader?

[1trackmind.livejournal.com]

I respect your opinion, but I don't agree that it's our responsibility as fans, as writers or as women to "say, hang on, we feel that female characters are entirely of value and constitute more than girlfriends, or emotional plot propulsion devices" every time we speak.

Do we say that? Damn straight we do. Emma does. But the fact that the show often does not handle women characters well does not gag us. It does not prevent us from telling other stories.

You said it far more eloquently than I. I really resent the suggestion that I have some sort of moral responsibility to fix the mistakes in canon if that's just not a story I'm interested in telling. I'm probably never going to write Amita, Liz, Robin, etc. as major character in a story or spend time on their back stories because frankly, I just don't care about them that much. It's unfortunate the show has made them one dimensional, but you know, they did that with David too and I don't feel like I have some moral responsibility to fix that mistake either. And you could absolutely have a discussion about the fact that he's the most one dimensional male character and also the only African-American. It's an important discussion to have. But does that make me any more interested in telling his story? Not really. I'm not interested in writing about Larry or Alan, either.

But there are a lot of other stories to tell about times when people are small and petty, make mistakes, get victimized, or are weak. Those stories are still valuable. They reflect the truth that we are all flawed and locked into our own point of view at any given moment. I wonder how we can tell them without losing the reader?

You've said it far better than I could. Thank you.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Come one, come all :)

but I don't agree that it's our responsibility as fans, as writers or as women [...] every time we speak.
To an extent, I do agree with you, if only because we would be restricted to our topics otherwise. But I also feel that Emma could have made better decisions with the fic that she wrote, and I do hold her accountable because as somebody so visible in the fandom, what she says counts. What she writes counts. And she chose Liz because it's easier to kill off a character that no-one likes anyway, than to deal with the emotional fall-out of the death of one of the regulars.

With regards to the fic itself, the question to me here is: did it have to be Liz? What are the benefits of it being Liz against the benefits of it being someone else? Emma herself will say that in this fandom there is very little love lost for Liz and/or Millie. Choosing to kill Liz, then, is a 'safe' option because in the eyes of fandom, she wasn't worth saving anyway. And don't tell me that if I hadn't commented that there wouldn't have been comments applauding Emma for killing Liz! Celebrating that violence! What is that? Why is that acceptable? I don't understand why more people don't take umbrage with that. How is it okay that a person chooses to exercise that kind of brutality against Liz just because they don't against Megan or Amita?

I'm not a person who reads fics for their political content. I'm not deliberately perusing fic for moments where I can pretentiously point at the author, aha! I have you! Like anyone else I go to fandom to buoy my enjoyment of a show, and to indulge in that community. I'm not looking for anthems, and I also don't think it's fandom's responsibility to fulfil my needs (I'm not lamenting a lack of fic that I want to read; that isn't my point here). But do I think that it is distressing to find that this fandom thinks that it's okay to routinely sideline these characters.

Let me take a moment here to say that it isn't Emma specifically who I accuse, it's fandom, and that this isn't the first time I've spoken about this, and that I hold myself as accountable as anyone else. It just happened to be her fic that set me off. It's just one example in a fanon of fic that doesn't care about what happens to these characters. Why add to that body? Why not choose to do something different?

I wonder how we can tell them without losing the reader?
It's a wide topic, but I'd say we can start by giving our female characters voices, autonomy and full-bodied characterisation.

[melissima.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry that happened, Leda. I for one miss having you around more. ♥

[melissima.livejournal.com]

Could you clarify something for me?

I hate that what pushed me out of a fandom that I adored was an inability for that fandom to respect all of its members.

By members, do you mean fans in the fandom, or characters on the show?

Thanks!

[grimorie.livejournal.com]

I'm really interested in how this discussion turns out. It's always been there but its only recently that I've noticed. And, yes, I really like how NCIS portray their women characters I particularly love that they gave us Ziva.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

That article you linked to was especially interesting in this regard. Other female characters I'd tote as great examples are Alex Eames (L&OCI) and Grace Hanadarko (Saving Grace - Holly Hunter's been nominated this year and whilst I don't think she'll bag it, I'm glad because that character is fierce). (Also: Lt Davis is fucking hardcore.)

I think it's also interesting to look at female characters less inclined to be actively kickass, but who are just as fierce in other ways. Trixie and Alma in Deadwood make the usual mistakes in their own way, but they're both fiercely independent in other ways. The three leads in Memoirs of a Geisha are also wonderful. So many characters!

[raucousraven.livejournal.com]

haven't read the fic, but good on you both for being willing to talk about it. have to say i agree with you about dr. horrible though. i really like joss whedon a lot, but his tendency to use women characters as plot devices in his overall narrative arcs is starting to get to me.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

I'm actually quietly pleased that there's been discussion as opposed to outright wankery, which is counterproductive.

Whedon is disappointing, I'll say. But I don't know. I want to see how Dollhouse turns out.

[hestia8.livejournal.com]

I am at a slight disadvantage here because I don't watch Numb3rs, but I think the points you're making can go cross-fandom. There's one fandom I have in particular where the female characters are just scrubbed out of existence in order to write more slash (even to the point that one author's original male characters seems to be accepted fanon now, which boggles me). And I wrote abut 3 pieces of slash at the beginning, and once I realised what everyone else was doing, I became incapable of slash and now write entirely gwen for that fandom, mostly focusing on the women.

Not that I've posted any yet. I think I'm not expecting much reaction, you know? Everyone just wants to read their NC17 slash fics. Spooks is better than most in this regard, I think. We have a fairly even spread of fic.

As for writing, I do feel a responsibility to treat the female characters well. TBH the only time I can remember writing a fic where the woman needs to get out of the way, it was Adam/someone and I always kind of figured Fiona knew how much he slept around... I can't imagine being able to write a fic where I killed someone/broke someone up purely to get my favoured pairing going.

(unless it was Adam/Ros > Zaf/Ros in some au form, but even there I'm flipping it because Adam is clearly the whiny one who can't let go)

I was having a discussion with Crishna last night about treatment of women in various books I've been reading (which I will make a post about) but it is true that women are worse served in (almost any) canon than men, and I think for some people that makes writing them a lot less like playing and a too much like hard work. Although personally to me that makes them more interesting - there is almost always more space to play because you don't know everything about them.

I think I am rambling, so I'll stop now, although I may adapt some of the themes for a post in my lj, if you don't mind?

[hestia8.livejournal.com]

Also, Dr Horrible, yes. I really liked Penny (she was nice and sweet and doing something at the grassroots level to change things! Why does this equal boring and no personality?) and never really sympathised with Dr Horrible. And the ending really upset me. Because that was her reward for doing the best she could? Being fought over by two gits and dying? Wow, thanks.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about Spooks a lot in regards to how the canon and fandom deal with the topic and whilst our fandom is not perfect, I think it actually deals with these topics in a much better manner.

There is an underlying idea that without writing about these topics there's nothing to write about in these fandoms. Like we're binding people's hands? That's not anyone's intention, but there are other things to talk about.

and I think for some people that makes writing them a lot less like playing and a too much like hard work.
Which is okay if you then decide not to talk about those characters at all - no harm, no foul. But to engage with those characters and then do away with them? What is that?

I don't mind; I'm not claiming the topic, lols, and I'm sure this isn't the only post I'll make.

[zeitheist.livejournal.com]

I actually agree that sexism is, like, the silent killer, or something. I'm usually dim enough to completely miss it in canon, but I tend to notice it more in fandom. It's most obvious in the Jack/Ianto contingent of Torchwood fandom, and the way they see Gwen - who is, generally speaking, a fairly well-developed character. I've seen it happening with Maya in Heroes fandom, and Djaq in Robin Hood fandom, and it's reached epic proportions in Supernatural fandom, where fans organise letter campaigns to the showrunners to protest the addition of girls to the show when, literally, all we know about them is that they are girls. I've seen a lot of female fans using quite terrifying language towards female characters: "slut", "whore", "bitch". I find it genuinely concerning. In the past, I've likened it to a girl with a crush, who hisses and spits at every woman who looks like she has designs on said crush, but it is exactly like that. Right down to the cries of "skank! Skaaank!" and the shunning and the bitter hatred.

(Disclaimer: I am not, in any way, suggesting that the author of that fic is like this. Or that anybody who dislikes women in canon is like this, really).

On the other side of the coin, I have to admit that I am a little irritated by people who hold up Doctor Horrible's Sing-Along Blog and say "the girl died -- that sexism". It happens every time a girl dies in source canon -- somebody stands up and says "oh, that's sexist". Even if it makes perfect sense that the woman had to die. Even if the show has killed male characters in the past with equal amounts of disregard. And I just wonder: would you prefer it if the girls never died? Would you prefer it if they were never evil? I'm taking Supernatural as an example, again, but I know one person who has claimed that the show is racist and sexist, because it kills off women and characters of colour, or makes them evil. That makes me a little bit punchy, I have to admit, because it just randomly ignores everything that doesn't confirm this viewpoint: the show does have strong female characters, and it does have non-evil characters of colour, and male characters do die with alarming regularity. It's not as if the writers are sitting around going "how can we be prejudiced next?". It's probably more a case of "we need a woman to balance out the Winchester boys -- but let's make it have a sad ending, because that's in line with out overall message".

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that people aren't entitled to their opinions. Go for it, go nuts, whatever. Equally, I'm not saying "OMG YOU'RE WRONG", because it is important to be on the watch for prejudice in television. I'm just saying: it bothers me, because I feel like these people are saying "women should never be killed in this show because they are special").

(This post bought to you by the letters: "if I see another fan refer to Maya from Heroes in a derogatory manner simply because she has "got in the way" of Sylar and Mohinder, then I will actually snap and put my hand through the drywall").

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Backwards replying, yay! Which is to say re: Dr Horrible (which, again - and check out all of our disclaimers; I love you for that because your comment has been so inoffensive that it barely needs them - I loved the show, guys, the ending irked me is all) Penny's sole function seemed to be to propel DH to his title, and I don't think she needed to die to do that (I'm not entirely convinced that it made a whole heap of sense in terms of the plot, either, but that may be an especially personal response. Did you ever watch Buffy? There was a similar female death in that which propelled the plot in a similar way, but I have less of a hard time swallowing that one because to an extent I do think it made sense.) I am less eloquent on this topic but I'm sure you've seen hundreds of posts talking about it one way or the other. general_jinjur made a post that surmised most of what I think. I can link you if you like. Maybe we've all had enough Big Thinking for today, though, lols.

It's not that female characters shouldn't die. It's not that female characters shouldn't be equal to the issues dealt by their male counterparts. But. To what extent do the female characters deal with it in equal measure to their male counterparts? Battlestar Galactica has strong female characters and strong male characters (and weak male & female characters). But more women have died in that show than men; more people of colour than of not; (there are issues of class that I'm not adept enough at addressing); the surviving characters in the highest positions of authority are male, white females, and heterosexual (I'm not sure you know the fandom, so I'll leave the comparison there, but one of the characters who died was a female lesbian Admiral). In contrast, Spooks does a much better job across the board. The violence can be just as gratuitous at times (COLIN, WTF) but that's a symptom of the show, not of the show's attitude to women (and the fandom reflects that! This fandom can be so solid sometimes). It helps to have good canon to build on, and Numb3rs doesn't.

That makes me a little bit punchy, I have to admit, because it just randomly ignores everything that doesn't confirm this viewpoint: the show does have strong female characters, and it does have non-evil characters of colour, and male characters do die with alarming regularity.
And I especially don't want to be the person who stands up every time and says that (although I feel like people who are coming to this journal think that's what I'm doing - they think I'm reactionary because this is a reactionary post - when actually I've written about this topic in depth multiple times). Because I don't think that shielding women from actually doing anything in a narrative is helpful in any way. Whilst SPN has a dubious track record with female characters (I have to say dubious because I haven't seen the whole thing) I think the fandom has more issues than the show does a lot of the time. Meg, for example, was amazing, and I loved what I saw of Ellen and Jo. (My post on 'Lilith' was totally reactionary, which doesn't help. I feel bad about that, y'all, if that helps?) What was my point here? Oh: I agree with you that reflexive reactions (dead woman = sexism) are annoying, and I also think they're not useful because they hurt actual discussions of topics of gender and race and sexuality in a medium.

That was both rambly and incoherent. In my defence, my brain hurts, lol. But, no, in sum: thanks for the comment. Especially about the flip side (re: should women therefore not do anything?!)

part 1

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Yeah, this weather is killing me. O breeze, where art thou?

By the by, I love all the stuff you've been linking re: DH recently. It's brought me a lot of glee. (Which just goes to show that talking about something doesn't mean you hate it.) And Joss is a good guy when it comes to portrayals of female empowerment (Buffy is great for that on the whole; there are exceptions, but there are exceptions everywhere) so I think there are times when you feel that maybe he should therefore be held to a higher standard (because he should know better). But, you know, sometimes any crit is harshing a person's squee which I completely understand, whether that crit is valid or not. Man, I've come to realise that it's difficult for me to objectively talk about Ros from Spooks! I just. I forgive her things! I make excuses for her! (I also have a deep instinctual reflexive hatred for people who talk about NCIS in a negative way. I'm all, you people just don't get it. Over-invested? Moi?) (Also: Martha Jones.)

! Hope you get to see the end soon if only for a lolarious scene at the very end with all the evil characters. And it probably won't change your mind, which isn't a bad thing. There's actually one thing that I do like about Penny's death, and that's the last piece of dialogue she has. I mean, I'd rather she'd have lived and gone on to make moves sans Hammer&Horrible's intervention, but whatever. I can deal.

(There was wank recently in Firefly fandom because some woman wrote a scathing report on the sexism in the show, most of which I felt was bullshit [the report, that is] but she also brought up something about the language used in the show which didn't prove sexism, but was definitely an interesting conversation about gender roles in language and society [as opposed to in FF], and made me want to be back doing A level English language. But that woman was vitriolic, so she got bombed pretty hard.)

I think this illustrates how oddly my brain processes things. Because I would see the strong female characters, and I would praise the show for its female-friendly ethos.
It's not your brain, I assure you. I was saying to twincy that I feel like university has ruined me for conversations of this nature because normally I'd be the same. Strong female characters! Positions of authority! Equal status with their male counterparts! And there's a tremendous amount of that in Battlestar and that show is phenomenal for a whole host of other reasons. Its treatment of female characters is pretty great on the whole. But then I was thinking about how many of the women got killed, and how many of the men, and the violence faced by the women compared to the violence faced by the men, the stereotype of crazy women in fiction... etc. The women, too, are pretty violent but none of them raped anyone (although one condoned it). And you know what? I'd never have looked into a lot of these things if it wasn't for my degree. I don't know whether that's good or not. I do know it's kind of exhausting to be Constantly Vigilant so I get where people are coming from when they decide, okay, today I don't want to think about that. I'm the same.

I could see people saying that the fact that it was a woman who became a double-agent in S6 is sexist
Yeah, the opportunities are everywhere. And Spooks fandom (and canon) are nowhere near perfect. But hey, we had a male honeytrap, mofos!

[iolsai.livejournal.com]

I had been following this thread and yes, many interesting points have been brought up and discussed in depth.

However let's go back to your main point.
Correct me if I am wrong, but basically you are saying that in fanfic Liz, Amita, Robin etc should not be killed off because in doing so, a writer makes a statement that yes, they, as females, are indeed unimportant and only good as love interests, so no one really cares about their deaths anyway.

So would it be better if someone fleshed them out first and then killed them off, having their original character family weep at the grave?

Trend in fandom or Emma's writing specifically, since, as you said yourself, you hold her accountable for being so visible in the fandom- you seem to be arguing both sides, picking whatever suits your argument.
So, which one is it?
If it's the latter, and you are using her as example, you can't discount the fact that Emma has killed off pretty much everyone at some point and depending on whether it was a drabble or a lengthy fic, either dealing with the emotional fall-out or not, so clearly she isn't just picking Liz because she is a disposable female.
Taking that into account, should Emma limit herself and not kill off any of those females at all, because otherwise it might get interpreted as condoning violent deaths of female characters only and set a bad example for fandom?

Also, doesn't it really depend on what a writer is going for with a death?

Generally speaking, if you want to write the big emotional scenes, you kill off Don, Charlie or even Alan, because you already have the canon characters there who will be affected most.
If you just want a personal touch, without focusing on the big mourning part, killing off Amita, Liz or Robin works because the main characters have a deeper connection with them.
Colby and David get killed off least, but not because they are men, rather because none of the other characters on the show would be that horribly affected by their deaths.
For their deaths to have a huge emotional impact, one would need to come up with original characters for them- wife, parents, siblings, etc, which is, well, work.

After all, fanfic is pretty much a short-cut because you get to use characters and their families that someone else already established for you.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Hi, and welcome to the discussion.

Correct me if I am wrong, but basically you are saying that in fanfic Liz, Amita, Robin etc should not be killed off [...] So would it be better if someone fleshed them out first and then killed them off, having their original character family weep at the grave?
You are wrong. Firstly, I believe in giving female characters - in fact, all characters - conflict. I think a narrative would fail to progress if it failed to have any motivator. Nobody is suggesting that there isn't a place for character death or victimisation in fiction. If there wasn't, there'd be a breadth of themes that fiction wouldn't be touching, and that would be counterproductive to the aims of literature in its most widest sense

you seem to be arguing both sides, picking whatever suits your argument. So, which one is it?
I really hope that you didn't come here to pick bones at me for what you see as some trait of fandom bullying. Emma and I have spoken about this, and I wouldn't name her without her consent. Trends in fandom are what I'm discussing, but Emma's fic was the one that I've been using as a springboard (a) because it was the one I saw which led me to this discussion and (b) because she then opened it up for further perusal.

Colby and David get killed off least, but not because they are men, rather because none of the other characters on the show would be that horribly affected by their deaths.
I disagree. I think Colby and David get killed off the least because they're not perceived as - for want of a better term - cockblockers.

Also, doesn't it really depend on what a writer is going for with a death?
I think the generalisations you make after this question are interesting, although I don't agree with all of the assumptions that you make.

You know what? This has nothing to do with whether or not a person (or a fandom as a whole) likes or dislikes any character. This has to do with a fandom that thinks it's okay to routinely subject some of their characters to characterisations that set them up to be harpies or victims. This fandom views a lot of the characters within it to be obstructions in the way of more fulfilling ships. That's fine, you know why? Because that's how fandom evolves on a larger scale. What's not fine is the vitriol displayed towards the unliked characters, and the glee and joy radiated by some fans in any situation where those unliked characters are taken out - whether they're emotionally humiliated, constructed as being less able to think for themselves, physically humiliated (by the threat of violence, be it plain thuggery or brutality ending in death) or demeaned in any way. There are ways of writing about these themes that say more about how one character feels about the other, than how the author, or the author's intended audience feel about that character. That is the distinction when writing about these topics. Is the act being written as a way to exploit the plot to its fullest sense, or is the act being written in such a way to exploit the perversities of the fandom? And if it's the latter, then shame, because this fandom as a whole has a poor track record with these 'lesser' characters.

[sororcula.livejournal.com]

I may come back later and try to contribute something of actual value, but for now I just wanted to tell you that between this post and the original one (from the 12th), I pretty much want to be you when I grow up.

I think this is a really important and valuable topic to discuss, especially in the Numb3rs fandom, where it NEVER is discussed, but where I see women (usually Amita) treated like shit all the time in fic.

(...and in canon. *shakes fist at Cheryl and Nick*)

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Well, first off, thanks for taking the time to read the other one (it's so long, god; it's easier to read when you can see all the LJ cuts I inserted but still. So long). That's probably a more accurate representation of the way I feel about things. I have to say that this post is more reactionary.

Secondly, I hope you do come back. Or that people now feel more able to discuss it in their own journals. I don't know. I feel like there's a huge stigma about commenting on it as a subject because nobody wants to be That Person in fandom who keeps stirring wank instead of just 'enjoying' what's on display.

(Canon. I. Oiskie.)