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delgaYou know who really isn't all that hot? Or rather, tries too hard at being hot? Liz Warner. I'm sorry, people, I just can't get anything from her. I think this is probably because she's basically just a Don!prop but it's frustrating. She'd be awesome for girlsecks if I gave even a bit of a damn about her. If she's being functional in an episode, I don't mind her; if she's being a prop, she irritates me a lot. Other than Don, we know what about her? Does she have an opinion about anything? Does she have characterisation? What exactly is her skillset? Is she a female Colby, i.e. a grunt? I don't - WHAT DOES SHE DO? And what exactly were the contrivances that brought her onto Don's cases so often? I mean, wasn't she in her own department which is why she showed up again in 3x13 (Finders Keepers)? So! Damn! Proppy!
It's not like she's the first token girlfriend to appear in a show ever; she's not even the first maternity replacement. But even Eames' replacement on Criminal Intent (Bishop) had her own personality. Jeebus, within the show itself, Millie has personality by the bucketload. SINGLE-SHOW GUEST STARS HAVE MORE PERSONALITY THAN LIZ WARNER. I know more about Billy Cooper than Liz Warner. More about Crystal Hoyle. More about SANDY LOPEZ than I do LIZ WARNER, and I don't even know Sandy Lopez's ACTUAL NAME.
Also. ALSO. Don Eppes, do you really care about this woman past sleeping with her? I just don't know. I DON'T KNOW. I can't tell from what I've seen. The dialogue never matches the body language. (When he says, "I'm crazy about you!" like he thought she knew that, I was totally on her side for not being sure because from the way he acts, you can never tell. Not once.)
I was not expecting this post to turn into this (it was actually going to be NCIS meta, haha?) but there we go. Obviously all this screencap selection is getting to me. But seriously, if I wanted to write about Numb3rs, I don't know if I could write about Liz. On the one hand, her being tabula rasa means you can write near-enough anything. On the other hand, I don't want to formulate a characterisation and have it jossed because then it's difficult to adapt to the actual character and you end up resenting the show for not being more like what you want it to be (Hi, Don!) At least with Don I can make a case for consistency (or, rather, I can explain the emotional arc). I'm not the biggest fan of this Don, but I can see why he is the way that he is. As I've said before, I find him to be pretty regressive and I wish he'd pedal down already, but whatever. I can explain it. I just can't do anything with Liz's character, and it ain't for lack of trying. (I can write Howard Meeks, for fuck's sake. HOWARD MEEKS. As in Joshua Malina's character.)
Stop making Don's girlfriends hollow props! Stop doing it! It was the same thing with Robin whatsherface and the blonde AUSA who I always want to name Naomi but is actually called... Nadine! HOLLOW CHARACTERS. How are we supposed to endorse these characters if you don't give us something to play with? I know you're all anti-fanfic, or whatever, but your fanbase grows because of fanfiction. If we can't play with the characters, we can't gun for them. It's not like you people are RTD who can get away with this ignore-the-fanbase BS. You don't work for the BBC. Do something about this. You obviously like this Liz Warner person. So do something. And if you can find Don's balls, hand 'em back, would you?
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Date: 2007-06-26 08:35 pm (UTC)The TPTB has such a potential for a hot strong, smart woman and it is not like they write her dumb but she is blah....
I guess will see one s4 will bring..
good rant !!!!
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Date: 2007-06-26 10:37 pm (UTC)I'm trying to like her. TRYING! If I can like her, or think about her, then I can write her. If I can write her, I can understand her better. And I need to do that - understand her. Because if I'm not understanding her, then there's something about Don that I'm missing because, yo, I don't get those two past an intense physical connection.
If she were just his fuckbuddy, I wouldn't care. But she seems to want this crazy sort of commitment shindig that Don thinks he wants (probably because of Alan) but never actually shows he wants. So. I DON'T KNOW. Either Don doesn't want her, or he does and I am MISSING SOMETHING. Needs to be fixed. I hope she gets some characterisation beyond Don!prop in S4.
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Date: 2007-06-26 10:46 pm (UTC)Or. Wait. Maybe she said that about him, too? ARGH. This might not even be her characterisation!
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Date: 2007-06-27 12:17 am (UTC)No you remembered that right. He commented to that she was adrenaline junkie at the end of Longshot and she threw back at him his own words something to the effect of growing up or how people change ( he made that comment to her in the breakroom when Liz said she heard the rumor aabout him and a long term relationship)
so yeah she was suppose to be a firecracker. I was like whoohoo another kick butt girl. but she fizzled. where did that go? why did they not show her has a hot head, why mention it and let it total fizzle away. I mean I can understand if she has matured more and has her temper under control...
but yeah they made her a prop. we see glimmers of what she is or could be but they never follow through.....
oh another note she supposedly was in the organized/gang unit so that is why she was involved in Long Shot, Blackout, FInder's Keepers and then lastly End of watch (the LT Walker Epi) but why was she in the other 3 episode other than as eye candy and to represent the female population while Diane was out.
IS she on his team now? Was it a temporary thing? Just those inconsistency drive me crazy? Also the FBI FROWNS upon a junior member dating their direct superior so if SHE was on his team they couldn't date..
I just wish they would have dropped something saying why she was there... I mean as watchers of the show we KNOW why... but story wise it was not there.
I can handle a few small plot holes here and there it is after all TV but so much with her messes things up especially Don's time line thing. (we talked about it in the post I did asking what Billy Cooper's age on my LJ)
I like the acrtress that plays Liz (aya sumika) but hate what they have done or maybe the lack of what thy have done..
like you said. she is a prop for manh0r don....
but I guess that is maybe suppose to be part of the lesson he is learning that he is with women to help dull the ache of his job rather than the pursuit of a relationship
also you said in your reply that part of the reason he is a relationship is cause he is lonely ( i believe that totally. I think he is a man that craves intimacy physical and emotional but because of the walls he has built up he can't
No you remembered that right. He commented to that she was adrenaline junkie at the end of Longshot and she threw back at him his own words something to the effect of growing up or how people change ( he made that comment to her in the breakroom when Liz said she heard the rumor aabout him and a long term relationship)
so yeah she was suppose to be a firecracker. I was like whoohoo another kick butt girl. but she fizzled. where did that go? why did they not show her has a hot head, why mention it and let it total fizzle away. I mean I can understand if she has matured more and has her temper under control...
but yeah they made her a prop. we see glimmers of what she is or could be but they never follow through.....
oh another note she supposedly was in the organized/gang unit so that is why she was involved in Long Shot, Blackout, FInder's Keepers and then lastly End of watch (the LT Walker Epi) but why was she in the other 3 episode other than as eye candy and to represent the female population while Diane was out.
IS she on his team now? Was it a temporary thing? Just those inconsistency drive me crazy? Also the FBI FROWNS upon a junior member dating their direct superior so if SHE was on his team they couldn't date..
I just wish they would have dropped something saying why she was there... I mean as watchers of the show we KNOW why... but story wise it was not there.
I can handle a few small plot holes here and there it is after all TV but so much with her messes things up especially Don's time line thing. (we talked about it in the post I did asking what Billy Cooper's age on my LJ)
I like the acrtress that plays Liz (aya sumika) but hate what they have done or maybe the lack of what thy have done..
like you said. she is a prop for manh0r don....
but I guess that is maybe suppose to be part of the lesson he is learning that he is with women to help dull the ache of his job rather than the pursuit of a relationship
also you said in your reply that part of the reason he is a relationship is cause he is lonely ( i believe that totally. I think he is a man that craves intimacy physical and emotional but because of the walls he has built up he can't <and doesn't think he should have that> ever have a lasting relationship.) and the pressure of Alan.
So sorry for rambling. This my fave show and I so get into talking about it. No other show other than firefly makes me boil as much....
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Date: 2007-06-27 08:16 pm (UTC)You know, I used to champion this show as a winner on the continuity front. That's why I get disappointed over these details. I get that Liz Warner is T&A but please. I'm fairly certain there are more women watching this show than men.
As for Don's timeline, I've never charted it through canon. Emotionally, his character makes sense, though. As much as I'm not S3!Don's biggest fan, he's not OOC.
part of the lesson he is learning that he is with women to help dull the ache of his job rather than the pursuit of a relationship
I might have read this wrong, but if he just wants a gf to combat the woes of his job then: asshole. Or, rather, just get a fuckbuddy already. (I wonder if that's what he tried with Liz but got sidelined when it turned out she wanted something else.)
I think he is a man that craves intimacy physical and emotional but because of the walls he has built up he can't
Yes, I can buy that; but whilst a relationship is something he envisions having, I'm not certain that's what he wants now. Or, at least, with Liz. I think Alan is worried that for Don, the relationship will always be 'tomorrow' but he's also really heavy handed about the whole thing.
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Date: 2007-06-28 03:53 pm (UTC)Usually they do a good job maybe next year but yeah I do have a feeling women watch more than men.... or at least fangirl it more.
In my post about the time line: Liz clearly states that she has been with the FBI for 4 years ( I watched the episode Money for Nothing to clarify this) Just doesn't work for what little we know of Don. He has been in LA now for almost 3..... so yeah things got glitched up.
yeah that does make him a bit of an asshole and I do beleive for a while that is what he has done. but I think he is too afraid of getting involved so he tries to keep things on the loose side. I do think he wants a relationship as I have said before but he falls into his old patterns easy.
As far as Liz, it seems like the can't decide to make her a fuck buddy or a g/f..... and I wonder what does Liz want her self. Cause she makes a comment about them but then follows it up with I don't know where I will be in 6 months....
(part of me can understand her wanting to define what is going on since maybe when they 1st hook up it was a casual thing but now it is something more but not quite serious either. I think her understanding the parameters of things and him too opens them up to either moving forward orkeeping it as a causal thing)
I think he like Liz and cares for Liz and he enjoys being with her but that doesn't mean she is right for him. I wonder if he some how knows that and also he is not right for her too.
I think Alan is afraid that Don will find hismelf alone but yeah he is haavey handed. ALan needs to back off but I think Don needs to allow Alan to voice his concerns and let him get it out so they can move on.
The other problem with Liz is they are in diffferent parts in thier lives and careers. I always think back to what if Don wants to settle down is that fair to Liz and her career? Cause let's face it she will be the one to sacrificve her career. which isn't a bad thing but they always seem like they are in 2 different places ...
i guess will have to wait and see what the writers do exactly...... bleh!
yes more babbling from me and don't feel like you need to reply back if you don't want... :)
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Date: 2007-06-28 04:07 pm (UTC)re: Alan, I think he's been voicing his opinions for a good long while. It's not as though Don doesn't listen to his father.
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Date: 2007-06-26 09:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-26 10:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-26 09:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-26 10:44 pm (UTC)As for Don The Manh0r, I'd care less if any of the people he was sexing looked like they had any sort of chemistry with him.
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Date: 2007-06-26 10:45 pm (UTC)And omg, I had no idea he was crazy about her until he said that line. WTF? You are? Well, um, DUDESHOWIT!
I can't remember if you wrote a drabble that I read and forgot to comment on, but I thought you wrote one that was Megan/Howard. I actually had no idea that was his name. They say things super fast on the show and super softly so whenever I turn the volume up really high, I still never hear anything. Remember that guy from a few episodes ago that was really tall and good looking and worked with Megan and Don during one episode of season 3? Megan sort of flirted with him during the first scene with him. But anyway, I could totally imagine him, or Joshua Malina's character with Megan. They'd make a cute couple.
I think Robin worked a bit more, but she was still pretty hollow. Nadine was sort of hollow too, but she just totally didn't work with Don. But we know she likes fudgsicles and is a cheap date. And wears pretty suits.
Not only does Don need his balls back, but he should learn how to solve a case too.
My father's not a fan of Numb3rs. Maybe this is why?
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Date: 2007-06-26 11:01 pm (UTC)I personally think that Don is emotionally retarded so even if he did feel 'crazy' about her, he'd have a hard time showing her. That said, I also don't think he wants what she wants. I think he feels a lot of pressure to be in a relationship because (a) he's lonely and (b) ALAN WON'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT. EVER.
No, I haven't written any Megan/Howard. I haven't written fic in aaaages, lol. I'm trying to figure out who you mean. Howard Meeks = Joshua Malina = the first male AUSA (http://www.tv.com/photos/viewer.html?type=21&ref_id=52744&ref_type_id=104&pic_number=4242). (Unfortunately, unless his new sow gets cancelled - which it may well do - he won't be back next season.) I still have difficulty with Howard Meeks because on the one hand he's recurred a couple of times, but on the other hand, the show uses him like a guest star we've never seen before. But I can tell you that he's passionate about justice, he's clear and to the point, and he knows what he wants and goes for it. Also: totally a competent guy.
I think you and I talked about Robin a year ago. I think she's prettier than Liz? But other than thatshe was an obvious Nadine-filler. At the start of S2 they were pushing Nadine and then the actress dropped and they picked up Robin who - in the episode she was in, The OG, I think - was basically a throwaway token AD FILLING for the Nadine woman. And then they tried to make her a more rounded character. And failed because all she did was pout at Don. I actually think that she became much more interesting as a character at the beginning of S3 and she had NO SCREENTIME. Which is a shame because that unspoken tension between her and Don (leading to the break-up?) would have been amazing to see. Which is yet another thing about Liz. Girl he sexes after splitting with Robin? REBOUND, MUCH?
re: learn to solve a case, I'm half with you. He earned his keep in The Janus Code, I think.
Haha. I think because the show fluctuates in quality? Also, it depends what you want from it, I guess.
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Date: 2007-06-27 04:31 am (UTC)Ooh right! That woman. She was a real character! I'd like to guest star like that on a tv show episode, because that role had a lot of depth and interesting moments for that actress to play.
I agree with Don's emotional retardedness. He was still sort of weird around people like Terry and Nadine and Robin, but it's hard to find someone to work with and get that proper chemistry. I'm not sure whoever is doing the casting really sets the person in the same room as Rob Morrow. I have this feeling that Don and Liz could be a cute couple, but only if they had chemistry and were written a bit better. Or if someone told Rob that he needed to really change the way he acts around women. Sometimes I see more chemistry between Don and Megan than I do between Don and Liz.
Ooh...hmm...maybe it was Megan/Colby? Hmm...maybe that was it. I know you have written Megan/Colby though. Hehe, thank you for the picture! I like Joshua Malina. I haven't seen him in much, but he's a good actor. Aww, he has a new show? I forgot about that. I think that's Big Shots with Michael Vartan. *scratches head* Cannot...quite...remember... HM seems like he does really know what he wants, yes. He seems very well-rounded.
Yes, we did, actually. I think she's prettier than Liz too. I think the actress (Aya somebody) is pretty though, and I have always loved those half Asians, I have to admit. I have a friend who's half Chinese and half...British maybe? My friend and Aya are those people you look at and are puzzled about their nationalty and heritage. They both look very exotic. Actually, I'm like that too, but I'm not half Asian. I thought Aya was Hawaiian. Actually, I think I read at imdb that she is. But I think she's also Japanese. I think mixed heritages are very cool, for some reason. It's like when you get an egg and you scramble it. It's like, "hey, you're still an egg, believe it or not!" But in reality, that scrambled egg has a completely different texture and taste and personality than an uncooked egg. (This has totally been a compliment for every mixed-heritage person, in case you didn't notice). :)
I'll have to go back and watch The OG, since I don't remember her character much. I don't remember her talking much, either. I remember when Don said thanks to her in Guns and Roses for helping out with that case, I though, "omG! must go back and look at screencaps! soooconfused!" I wish they made her a more rounded character by not making her be mad at Don. I feel bad for her though, cause it's not like she knew why he ditched her. They didn't really know each other at all, and I wished they did a better job of making up and moving on. I really wish they showed that tension too. Hehe, we had this same conversation months ago! Haha. I don't mind repeating it though, cause it totally works in this conversation. It seems a bit too rebound.
Ooh right! That woman. She was a real character! I'd like to guest star like that on a tv show episode, because that role had a lot of depth and interesting moments for that actress to play.
I agree with Don's emotional retardedness. He was still sort of weird around people like Terry and Nadine and Robin, but it's hard to find someone to work with and get that proper chemistry. I'm not sure whoever is doing the casting really sets the person in the same room as Rob Morrow. I have this feeling that Don and Liz <i>could</i> be a cute couple, but only if they had chemistry and were written a bit better. Or if someone told Rob that he needed to really change the way he acts around women. Sometimes I see more chemistry between Don and Megan than I do between Don and Liz.
Ooh...hmm...maybe it was Megan/Colby? Hmm...maybe that was it. I know you have written Megan/Colby though. Hehe, thank you for the picture! I like Joshua Malina. I haven't seen him in much, but he's a good actor. Aww, he has a new show? I forgot about that. I think that's Big Shots with Michael Vartan. *scratches head* Cannot...quite...remember... HM seems like he does really know what he wants, yes. He seems very well-rounded.
Yes, we did, actually. I think she's prettier than Liz too. I think the actress (Aya somebody) is pretty though, and I have always loved those half Asians, I have to admit. I have a friend who's half Chinese and half...British maybe? My friend and Aya are those people you look at and are puzzled about their nationalty and heritage. They both look very exotic. Actually, I'm like that too, but I'm not half Asian. I thought Aya was Hawaiian. Actually, I think I read at imdb that she is. But I think she's also Japanese. I think mixed heritages are very cool, for some reason. It's like when you get an egg and you scramble it. It's like, "hey, you're still an egg, believe it or not!" But in reality, that scrambled egg has a completely different texture and taste and personality than an uncooked egg. (This has totally been a compliment for every mixed-heritage person, in case you didn't notice). :)
I'll have to go back and watch <i>The OG</i>, since I don't remember her character much. I don't remember her talking much, either. I remember when Don said thanks to her in <i>Guns and Roses</i> for helping out with that case, I though, "omG! must go back and look at screencaps! soooconfused!" I wish they made her a more rounded character by not making her be mad at Don. I feel bad for her though, cause it's not like she knew why he ditched her. They didn't really know each other at all, and I wished they did a better job of making up and moving on. I really wish they showed that tension too. Hehe, we had this same conversation months ago! Haha. I don't mind repeating it though, cause it totally works in this conversation. It seems a bit too rebound.
<seemorebelow!>
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Date: 2007-06-27 08:23 pm (UTC)I wonder if Aya Sumika is happy with the character, or if she just wants a job. I understand that. I just think she has a better chance of maintaining her job if she has a fannish following. Which. Does she? I don't mean Sumika in herself, I mean Liz Warner. Hmm. I'm going to do a poll. *g*
Or if someone told Rob that he needed to really change the way he acts around women.
LOL. Yes. lol.
She (Robin) had all of a handful of lines in The OG. She was a filler! Pure and simple. I bet people saw her in Guns and Roses and had no idea who she was.
it's not like she knew why he ditched her
No, it was the other way around. She ditched him.
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Date: 2007-06-27 11:23 pm (UTC)Hmm, I'm wondering that too. She hasn't been in very many productions, and she's gotten a great role to really get some bigger projects in Hollywood. I never would have heard of her (like Diane Farr) if there weren't Numb3rs. I like her, (Warner) seems nice, but she doesn't have any juice. Or meat. There's not much for Aya to play around with.
Hehe.
Yeah! She seemed like she could be played by anyone. I totally saw her in Guns and Roses and had no idea who she was. *raises hand* That was meeee!!
Nooo, I mean at the beginning of Guns (sorry I didn't make this clear) when he gets called into work when they are kissing in the car. She didn't know why he left her there.
(from your second post)
I'll definitely have to watch more of season 1 at some point. I bet you're right, about the Don/Kim relationship. He does seem to be a committment-phobe, which is probably part of his problem with Robin. He said that she couldn't commit, but I think in truth, it was mostly him. I mean, Robin just wanted to spend time with him. That's not a failure to commit to a relationship.
I just don't know about that part of the episode. I'll have to go back and watch the whole thing. I mean, even people with low-latent inhibition can't quite split an image up into 3-D like he did. Mostly people with that see a 2-D image at different angles and sides. I wish he'd solve a crime the old-fashioned way too, which is what makes the show so good. The visions are from Charlie, who's the genius, but you can use just plain FBI skills to solve that same crime in the finale episode.
Don can be an ass. My father just doesn't like Rob Morrow. I am not a huge fan of Rob Morrow either, because I think he's weird, but I wish he'd give me a good reason why he's a jackass, like he saw an interview or something that pissed him off.
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Date: 2007-06-27 04:32 am (UTC)I think that part in The Janus Code (The Janus List?) was sort of dumb because that vision was really cheesy and people don't normally have visions like that. He's not that good at playing piano. I know people who have been playing piano since they were born (two people I knew had a musician for a parent and the other had a conductor for a parent, also a pianist), and so the bit was a bit unrealistic. I mean, if Don were like Charlie and was a musican wizard, he wouldn't be in the FBI. He'd be off being the next Beethovan. And the whole bit about Charlie figuring out the code was so unrealistic too. It just pissed me off, cause I know someone who cracks codes like that for the CIA, and it takes daaays to do that kind of work. I don't know. I wish he'd solve a crime without the silly visions, but just plain FBI skills.
Haha, maybe. My father doesn't like Rob Morrow, because he thinks "he's a jackass." "Why, Dad?" "He's just a jerk. I don't like him." "The character Don Eppes doesn't seem that much of a jerk." "Whatever." This is coming from the man who has testified before Congress... :D I tell him that if he watches, he shouldn't concentrate on "the jackass" but just on the math.
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Date: 2007-06-27 08:29 pm (UTC)I actually think that Don's revelation made a lot of sense, and not because he knows how to play the piano but because he's been looking at things numerically a lot since Charlie's been on the scene. Also, he's pretty visual. If you give hn image, he can work out is logistics. He has spatial aptitude (he's a good shot). I think what made it unrealistic was that he couldn't go anywhere with it (mostly because he didn't have the whole puzzle.) But fuck it. If Charlie all of a sudden is better at dealing with bombs than David, then Don can have an in on the maths. I think Don would actually have the chance to solve a case in the old fashioned way if his brother didn't keep sticking his nose it.
LOL, I don't know. I think Don can be an ass, lol.
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Date: 2007-06-26 11:40 pm (UTC)Seriously, I believe they were trying to make a woman who was FemmeDon. A woman who was capable, intelligent, and could work on equal footing with an alpha-male personality like Don. What we got, instead, was Liz Warner. She is a prop, a coat rack with a rack.
I know more about Billy Cooper than Liz Warner.
We know Billy based upon how he sees Don and how they work together. They had chemistry and played well off of one another. Chemistry is something that Liz and Don lack. Second, fandom pretty much filled in the blanks of who Billy Cooper is. Whatever the interpretation is, there is a line of fanon that works well with Billy. Liz...yeah. Has fandom approached her at all?
The trend of Don having zero personality shows how little TPTB care about these women. How are we supposed to care about Don being upset over breaking up with one of these women-see, I can't even remember which one-when we don't give a damn about any of them?
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Date: 2007-06-27 12:08 pm (UTC)HA. Exactly. She was bought on as eye-candy and now she's redundant. Just like every other Don!prop.
Whilst I get that one-show characters need to be showcased in one show so we get more information on them in a shorter time-span, it's still ridiculous that Liz, who has appeared in a handful of episodes now, is still a non-entity. She has NO CHEMISTRY with anyone on the show. I've yet to see her in a scene where I'm nto cringing at her. I've come to believe this has a lot to do with the fact that TPTB suck at writing female characters.
Even if fandom wanted to approach Liz, could they? I mean, outside of Don? I think
I've been thinking about why there's so much slash in this fandom, and I've come to the conclusion that it's not as simple as saying, well, there's more male cast members. I actually think it's because the male interactions are more fruitful for fandom discussion, mostly because the women - including leads, like Amita, Terry and Megan - are so poorly treated. Why should fandom dialogue encompass these women, let alone Don's fuck o' the week, when TPTB refuse to themselves?
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Date: 2007-06-27 07:25 pm (UTC)Ding ding ding.
Amita's main characterization stems from being in love with Charlie. Apparently she is a capable mathematician and yet Charlie always has to be there to guide her, even when he goes to her for advice. He's a genius, yes, but come the fuck on. And Megan. Megan is her Daddy Issues and Hardened Adolescence. Terry was a woman, yes. But my god she was capable and entirely devoid of the typical daddy issues/I love my coworker to the point it is crippling my character thing that makes me hate a character so quickly.
Fandom spec is fun when it is based in canon. Liz's canon is flimsy to the point of being non-existent. The actress and TPTB just either don't care or believe they are doing a wonderful job since everyone just fawns over them in forums. If no one says, "XYZ sucks" then nothing will be done about it.
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Date: 2007-06-27 08:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-28 03:31 am (UTC)Blech.