WaT fic is plaguing my mind...

[delga]

Dude, what is it about S/J fic that makes me swoon? Even before I'd ever seen a single episode of WaT fic I was reading good J/S fic. I figured when I finally saw the show I'd be a J/S shipper. But - as has been noticed - I hate the ship. By that I mean I totally destest it. I can't stand stand seeing it. I also can't stand M/S and D/M is my in-the-head 'ship.

So why on earth do I love J/S fic? Because I do - I've read a ton of it and the only thing I like better is well-written D/M. I just read a fic by cabarethaze (who I found via daygloparker - oh, on that note, you totally have to read Chinatown. What an amazing fic!) that is, to me, just a brilliant example of J/S fic. It has delicacy that just isn't achieved by M/S fic. M/S fic seems to be full of authors who have no skill whatsoever (I'm willing ot concede that I may be wrong on this point - feel free to point me to good M/S fic if the need takes you). AND WHY IS THERE NO VIV-MEISTER FIC??? Note to self: must do something about this! It's a crime, frankly.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Am I just a freak? Because y'all on my flist know - know - how much I dislike J/S and M/S. Why is the fic so attractive? Does it have anything to do with fanfic in general? jacksrubberduck recently pointed out that her fic-fandom and viewage-fandom (albeit for the SG-fandom) are separate enitites. wliberation and I were discussing the difference between orig. fic and fanfic - do the differences there also apply inside fandom? Does it matter that I ship outisde the program? Does it matter that my fandom is non-canon whilst I'm watching the show but totally/mildly canon when I'm reading it? And should I be fixating on it this much? (Yeh, ok, probably not).

Any ideas? I'm really interested to hear what everyone else to say even if you only read fanfic. You don't even need to be talking about the WaT fandom. if you read any fanfic at all, please put in your thoughts.

Heh. I'm such a geek.

Comments

[tigertrapped.livejournal.com]

Here I am kicking off the debate, as requested (is there anything I won't do for you darling? That would be a no, then). My observations, for what they're worth:

1. Great fan fiction can make even badly scripted shows watchable, eg Smallville. (Not that all Smallville fiction is great - I've read some that made me crave electroshock therapy to remove them from my memory).

2. Truly great fan fiction transcends the need to watch the show, eg Alias. I got hooked (as you know) on Alias (well, on Sark) from reading crossover fic (Spooks, Alias), then canon fic, then non-canon fic. Finally, after all that, I actually got to watch an episode of the show. This was a strange initiation. Because I'd read fiction with slash between characters that - had I come into the fic via the show - would have totally freaked me out. For example, Sloane and Sark. (Yes, I'll repeat that, Sloane and Sark). Now all I knew from the fic was "older guy, younger guy". I could dig that. Seeing the show, and putting faces to the names, was... well it was uncomfortable, as you may imagine. (Although I still can't get why Nita thinks Vaughn and Sark shouldn't get it on - maybe I need to watch a few more episodes to get that objection).

3. The best fic, I think, starts with canon and then ever so gradually, carefully, moves the characters into other realms that makes relationships possible that, on-screen, would never work. Or would never be allowed to work.

4. Fans can take risks with characters that script-writers and producers would never dare. I found out that there was a ghost script for Alias, season one, that suggested a plot development that Sark and Sydney were siblings. The producers leaked it, got a bad reaction from viewers, so dropped it. Fan fiction doesn't have to earn a living or please the advertisers, so it can do pretty much what it likes with the characters (which can sometimes be a good thing, sometimes bad, but is nearly always interesting).

5. I guess the show needs to be good enough on its own merits to inspire fans to write in the first place. Where fiction works better than scripts is when a show starts to slide downhill but the fans keep it alive and kicking with great stories. Sorry to quote the Smallville example again but season one was basically a gay-fest with Lex and Clark circling one another like a pair of tango dancers. Up leapt Smallville Slash sites everywhere, inspired by this "promise". Oops, went the producers. Down boys, snapped the advertisers. And we got season 2, 3 and 4 in which Lex and Clark were hardly ever allowed in the same room together without a female escort. Thanks to the likes of Kitty Fisher, however, the Slash Lives On. (Oh and the boys are forever young and golden in the fic, that helps too).

In conclusion? Who knows? I think a university degree course may be in order. They have one on Religion in Dr Who, don't they?

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Detka! Thoughts on your thoughts (and we're back to this...)

Great fan fiction can make even badly scripted shows watchable
Do you think this works in reverse? I mean, can appalling fanfic make a well-scripted show not worth the time? Or do you only need one element (goodscript and/or fanfic) to stomach it? In my opinion, it doesn't happen in reverse (if you're watching a brilliant show and there's bad fanfic, you just stop reading teh fanfic, yeh?) but my point is, do you have to love the show to love the fanfic? (I guess you said no to that...um, moving on).

Truly great fan fiction transcends the need to watch the show.
OK, so I guess that answers the above :) But don't you think knowing the canon helps understanding of the fic? Or is that unecessary (because fanfic is above and beyond the show/fandom/canon)?

Yes, I'll repeat that, Sloane and Sark
Sorry, but -- *shudders* Also, Nita wouldn't do Vark (heh, love that) because it threatens her OTP; that is, it threatens Syd/Vaughn.

Or would never be allowed to work.
See, now this is what wliberation was talking about. Fanfic is brilliant for just that - it breaks boundaries. Absolutely destroys them. (Admittedly we were discussing O.fic vs fanfic but the point still stands).

Fans can take risks with characters that script-writers and producers would never dare.
See above. Not that I think it does but do you think fanfic can destroy canon?

Where fiction works better than scripts is when a show starts to slide downhill but the fans keep it alive and kicking with great stories.
Fanfic, I suppose, is beyond time and beyond show quality (as is fandom). However, I think you can get to a point where the state of the show affects the state of fanfic/fandom. Take, par exemple, WaT (which I know you don't watch, but bear with me): Danny/Martin isn't canon at all but various happenings in the series have resulted in a breakdown of the relationship in the fandom world. Did that make sense? What I mean is, faith has been lost in the ship. is this because it's non-can? If it were canon, would this be different? I mean, I've read some terrific post-BtVS fic which keeps the fanfom sweetly singing (including this awesome Faith/Wes fic which nearly killed e) but the end of BtVS wasn't particuarly strong. Then again, BtVS survived 7 years and WaT is in it's third in the US.

Wow, ok. That was long.

[tigertrapped.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about bad fanfic - you just stop reading it - it doesn't impact on the enjoyment of a great show. Good fanfic can make you keep watching a weak show, though, because it provides a sub-plot and you can read stuff into the smallest on-screen gesture because it fits the fic.

I think all fan fic is basically subversive, as you point out. Even the badly written stuff. If the badly written stuff is bad enough it can be a joy in a weird way (just like some movies are so bad they're good, e.g. The Island of Dr Moreau with Marlon Brando - golly I love that film but it Stinks on Stilts).

Some shows are brave enough to tap into the subversion but it takes real courage - the whole Spuffy thing was predicted/prefaced by fan fic, then the show actually did it and boy was it great (while it lasted). But how many shows are willing to take that sort of a risk? And look what happened when BtVS did - SMG claimed it broke her spirit and off she went to make spiritually uplifting films like Scooby Doo (don't get me wrong, I still love the Buffster and The Grudge was great).

I think if a show is strong enough it can break fic angles, like you say. I think the best fic comes from shows with promise that is never quite realised - that's the niche the fan writers find and exploit. If the show spoon-feeds what fans want there's no gap to be filled. And, arguably, professional script writers ought to be better than amateur fans at writing great stories and characters, and relationships. But - and here's the crunch - within the canon restrictions of the show which are always to one extent or another dictated by the producers and the advertisers. Only when a show is successful and that success can be linked to a star (eg SMG) does the influence of the sponsor sometimes give way to the influence of the star/writers. Old example: the Disney production team, visting the set of Pirates, wanted Johnny Depp to tone down the "queer" Jack Sparrow, but he didn't (big star) and it worked - so ya boo sucks to you, Disney.

That's enough of that, I think. I'm sure if I look hard enough I'll find I have work to do today. This was fun, though!

[daygloparker.livejournal.com]

Well, I could offer my obviously very, very biased) reasoning for the difference between J/S and M/S fic, but... uhhhh, it probably wouldn't nice to M/S. Heh. (ohmigod! that's my fic up there! *blushes muchly*)

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

uhhhh, it probably wouldn't nice to M/S
Heh, in honesty, I'm a bitch about both M/S and J/S (maybe you can convert me *grins*) But seriously, go ahead, strike a debate :) I can't stand reading M/S fic - one because it goes against my WaT OTP (which, OK, is non-canon, but do I really give a shit? No) and two because it's so damn poor most all of the time.

ohmigod! that's my fic up there!
Well, YEAH! You do realise, of course, that Chinatown is the reason I love J/S fanfic, yes? That's the fic that set me on the road to more J/S fic and is still my favourite, even now. J/S fic always seems to have the best angst - and yet I can't stomach it on screen. I just can't stand either character.

[daygloparker.livejournal.com]

My brief with M/S fic (and, honestly, the pairing itself)... is that there's nothing inherently dramatic in it. Nothing. At all. There are no obstacles. And I think if you CAN make an argument for internal obstacles (namely, Sam's latent love for Jack and dealing with THAT)... then your pairing/fic/what-have-you is "Tricycle Fic," as I so lovingly named it (Jack/Sam/Martin... NO NOT LIKE THAT). So... the fic's boring. Heh.

That's the fic that set me on the road to more J/S fic and is still my favourite, even now.

*blushes and mumbles and becomes incoherently me* I'm so glad you like it! :)

[sens-nita.livejournal.com]

Hi, you don't know me but...Chinatown? Best fic. Just brilliant. Love.

[daygloparker.livejournal.com]

oh, my. THANKYOUTHANKYOU. Seriously, like. WOW. Heh.

[sens-nita.livejournal.com]

I know you haven't seen S3 so I won't spoil but I think the main reason M/S fic is so bad is that it's more open (even in canon) to fluff. Bad fluff. Outrageously bad fluff. The things about J/S fic is that, firstly, it's angst and that's a genre that is so much riper for intelligent writing (not that I'm saying fluff isn't; it's just that fluff is mostly written by fans who are tunnel-visioning the ship and nothing else. I mean, you and I ship GSR and you know what kind of crazies there are out there in that world).

I agree with the above point that good fic can transcend the need to watch the show; in reverse, no, if the fic is bad but the show is good, just quit reading the fic! (BTW, you should totally write Viv-fic).

I would say both fic and viewage fandoms are separate. For example, fic Catherine is wonderful but onscreen Catherine (sorry, re: CSI) can be a hand-full. I know I separate all the time, especially in the case of WaT. Same reasons as you, really: the character son the show don't gel for me. Oh, wow, fantastic example -- Miami? Blows. Absolutely stinks. And we know that. But fandom is a place where it can thrive.

Overall, J/S fic is good because the fans obviously belive in the shipbut also because the fans are just *good* at it; their style is more sophisticated. Let's just hope we can get someone from teh Hex fandom to work that one out for us, yeh?