{ it's been years since you've been here. }

[delga]

So. Does anyone know of any novels that show age variant relationships in a positive way? And by that I mean: in which the older of the couple is not exposed as a paedophile, and (preferably) in which the younger of the two is past their mid-teens (18+). Anyone?

I know that fandom takes a rather spread attitude to this stuff. There are people who ship age-variant characters (in what tends to be a destructive way) and that's not really what I'm interested in. (Admittedly, those portions of fandom also tend to focus on the sexual aspect of the relationships and, again, that's not what I'm looking for). Abuse is not my bag, guys. I'm interested in novels/literature in which the relationship is successful, or in which the failure of the relationship would have come about regardless of the two people's ages. Kind of like in Prime which is an interesting example, actually, because the woman is older, the age difference (on screen) doesn't come off as quite so spread, and the relationship does end (partially) due to the age difference, but in an amicable way.

Anyone? Do people even understand what it is that I'm asking?

edit: I think Y Tu Mama También sort of fits, actually, but again, older woman! Has anyone seen Malèna? Again, older woman, but this time adolescents; not really an example of what I mean. (I am sensing a trend here, which begs an interesting question about male-female power dynamics.) Parts of Hallam Foe may be more appropriate, but I haven't seen that.

edit ii: Can involve same-sex relationships, too.

Comments

[twincy.livejournal.com]

There are people who ship age-variant characters (in what tends to be a destructive way)
On that, briefly: it's not as if I spend a lot of time in these portions of fandom, but I find that people who ship age-variant pairings (or pairings that are taboo for another reason, i.e. incest) in fandom tend to ignore social implications and taboos attached (save for, perhaps, a cursory mention) and pretend it's all rainbows and ponies. I don't know if that's specifically because they feel they can't justify the relationship, or simply because they think it's too much of a bother.

(This is part of the reason why I don't buy pairings such as Gibbs/Abby. The emotional relationship those two have sits uneasily with me once brought into a sexual context, and the fic I've read doesn't nothing to convince me otherwise. [I should just post this as a reply to your comment re: this, but I'm tired and lazy: the fic made me uncomfortable. I almost didn't finish it, but I'm glad I did in the end because the last line turns the whole thing on its ass and it's rather stellar.])

Which is completely irrelevant to your argument. Also: I equated age difference to incest, which, aie.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

tend to ignore social implications and taboos attached
Which is why I've not turned to fandom, because it tends to specifically avoid the things that I want to read about. (On that note: I guess that makes me more than a little perverse.)

(That fic is very much redeemed by the end - I skimmed parts of it - but if I read it like a McGee fic, which I did, it worked a lot better. Like I said in the comments to your post, Jethro/Abby doesn't make sense to me emotionally, and I'm not convinced. But I'm also a Grissom/Sara shipper in CSI and even though that's canon, sometimes I wonder how they make that work, too, like, what does each one bring, what does each one sacrifice? [Fandom actually handles this pairing fairly well, but I think that links back to certain issues in the canon.] Back to Jethro/Abby, though, specifically I think for Jethro there would be particular Issues, if only because of his daughter, and I think that attachment to Abby crossovers over into familial territory.)

Not irrelevant at all. And in fandom, age difference sometimes actually = incest, or something equally abusive. I reckon I'm going to get bashed for this, but whatever: I'm thinking specifically of instances in HP fandom, which is sort of ironic because the first time I thought about this was when I was considering teacher/student (non-sexual) relationships. But in HP fandom you get a lot of quite fucked up relationships that are all about gratification of very, very specific needs and not at all about the 'people'ness of relationships. (Harry/Lucius Malfoy?!)

[general-jinjur.livejournal.com]

you're just looking for contemporary novels, right? this is kind of an odd example, but the time traveler's wife is occasionally extreme - henry is almost always older than claire, and sometimes significantly older. and their relationship isn't actively sexual until she's eighteen, i think, but it's inactively so starting in her young teens. and that's a very positive relationship. that said, it is always told with the understanding that they are actually far closer in age than they seem - i think they are perhaps ten years apart.

i feel like i should be able to come up with more, and more that are straightforward about the ages.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Yet another reason to finally go out and get that book; thanks for the tip.

In the same league of mostly-qualifying-mostly, I just realised that Diana Wynne Jones' Fire and Hemlock (Young Adult!) broaches the topic, too. So. That's two so far, then.

[melanie-anne.livejournal.com]

The only thing that comes to mind right now is Jane Eyre, but then I have literally just crawled out of bread so brain = fuzzy. I'll comment again if I think of more later.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I guess Jane Eyre does count. Which means Sense and Sensibility does too. Oiskie, Austen. Anything more recent? Let me know if you think of anything.

[wliberation.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Interesting question. I wish I had something to recommend. Um, wait. Holy Smoke. Movie is probably better than the book? I can't remember. Except... yeah, positive? Not so much, I think, but that might have to do with the entire fuck-uppedness of the situation. So, possibly not what you're looking for.

I see someone recced Time Traveller's Wife. I still have that in my shelf, unfinished. I don't think I ever got past page 100. I must finish it one day, to have a proper opinion if for nothing else. It's just that... I got really creepy vibes out of it. Maybe that's just me.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Heh. I've read enough fucked-up ones. I'll check it out anyway.

I've been meaning to get it for a long time now, so I might just do that already, heh. I got really creepy vibes out of it. Because of the age variance, or just in general? If the former: I think that's one of the reasons why it's not really written? Because it hits peoples squick buttons. If the latter: this should be an interesting read, then!

[wliberation.livejournal.com]

The age variance didn't bother me as such. I mean, I didn't even realise they were 10 years apart; I only noticed it now that the commenter above mentioned it. I don't think the novel was trying to be fucked-up purposefully. Had it been that, I probably would have liked the setting more. What bothered me was that, the first time they meet each other, the guy was thirty or something, and the girl was six. I got this really creepy image of the guy standing over this little girl in play and thinking, "oh yeah, that's the one I'm going to marry". You know? I just got this sense that the girl/woman was raised up into the relationship, and I found that idea incredibly disturbing. It was made even more disturbing for me because it seemed that the novel was trying to sell the relationship as something very romantic and sweet, and all I could see was manipulation. Then again, as I said, I didn't get very far into the book before I put it down, so I might be very, very wrong. But that's the feeling I got.

Also, the entire setting - the time travelling thing - tasted like such a rip off from Slaughterhouse 5. :)

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

What bothered me was that, the first time they meet each other, the guy was thirty or something, and the girl was six. I got this really creepy image of the guy standing over this little girl in play and thinking, "oh yeah, that's the one I'm going to marry".

This is very interesting because on the one hand, I can see how shuddersome that is (mostly because you really are leaning into paedophilia). But on the other hand - to what extent do people think like this when they see age-variant relationships in RL? I mean, it's one thing for two people who've never met before but on occasion you'll get a relationship between two people who've known each other for a very long time. This seems like a ridiculous example, but Celine Dion is younger than her husband's eldest; she met him when she was 13, their relationship started at the end of her teens, and they married a few years later. And so many people have trouble with the nature of that relationship - was it something genuine? Did he manipulate her? Was she manipulating him? But at the same time, a lot of people don't seem to have trouble with the book mentioned, and a lot of people were behind a relationship in Doctor Who where the Doctor meets a girl when she's young and comes back periodically as she ages, ultimately falling for her. And I'm not just talking about fandom; this is sold to us because by the end of it, the two LOOK the same age, but in actual fact, she's supposed to be in her mid-20s and he's 900 YEARS OLD. (Another relationship people never really figure out is in Buffy. HELLO, NECROPHILIA.) So, I think in some ways it's more about appearances than actual age gap? I mean, where the age gap is perceived?

This is a hell of a tangent, and I have to leave, aie. But I will come back and chat more!

[wliberation.livejournal.com]

Interesting question. Of course, I can't answer for anyone else. :) But, re: the book, I think I would have been less bothered if the relationship/acquintance (sp?) had started in her teens because I feel that at that stage, I could have imagined some more sense and ability of critical thinking on her end. I think one's opinion on the issue also depends on how one personally defines paedophilia: as someone taking interest in someone who happens to be underaged, or as someone taking interest in someone because they are underaged. I'm leaning on the latter option, and so, no, I didn't find the book/setting paedophilic as such, just highly manipulative.

But yeah, isn't it all about appearance after all? Some people are all about numbers, and they have some calculation going on it their heads all the time, and if you go beyond their limits in numbers (some people find 5 years of diff too much, wtf), things suddenly become sick. Personally, I don't understand that point of view, but whatever. Others, then, seem to be all about looks, like you mentioned; it's okay as long as the couple at least looks around the same age. I know a person who found this music video absolutely disgusting because it has this clearly old, wrinkly woman french-kissing a younger man (though, you have to admit, the video in general is kind of terrifying *G*). That was probably because the age difference there is clearly visible. (A sketch from Little Britain comes to mind, about that bloke who was into grannies, as another example of the visible age gap being scandalised.)

But don't you also find that this line of thinking is specific for our times? I mean, the line between adulthood and childhood and what that line implies is culturally and historically defined, and it seems to me that our times particularly "demonises" age difference. I found it interesting that above, you were recommended older books, and I realised that yeah, this sort of relationship is a lot more common in older books, but not so much in contemporary novels. Interesting.

Ah, damn. Well, we can continue this later. Have fun whatever you're doing!

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Well, I bought the book today. I'll likely have a lot more to say once I've read it, heh. As for definitions of paedophilia, I agree with you, but I'm fairly certain that up to a certain age it doesn't matter. By which I mean, if it's a 6yrold, it's perceived to be abuse one way or the other where sexual gratification is involved. That said, I really don't think that's what's happened in the novel. A similar situation: two people meet, one is a child, the other a young adult. They have a conventional interaction. When the younger has matured, they begin a romantic relationship - this is different, too. re: manipulation, as I said, more on that once I've read it :)

Five years? Heh: people can be so bizarre sometimes. I once read a calculation for acceptable age difference which was something like, half the elder's age, plus two. (No idea if that's accurate or not, but you get the drift.) I-- what?

As for the Little Britain sketch, and that music video (which is so SCARY, like when that guy's crotch LIGHTS UP WHAT), it's because of perceived ideas of sexuality, or how older people are sort of sexless. The LB sketch is especially odd because it combines two 'taboo' subjects - sexual attraction to the elderly, and in one case, a foot fetish. I have to admit, that sketch makes me uncomfortable, and I never really questioned that response until recently.

and it seems to me that our times particularly "demonises" age difference
Yes, I do think it's a culturally modern thing and in some ways I sort of find that strange. On the one hand, childhood is cherished in a way that it previously has not been - the nanny state, and so on, constant vigilance over harm to children and so on. But of course, that one area where we've never cleared the confusion is: where does it end? People talk about sex at 16 to be scandalous but people used to marry at that age. Young people are learning about sex earlier according to some people. I'm not sure that's true; I think it's becoming more obvious that they're learning it at the low of pubescence, and I think that responses to that (in England Sex Ed starts younger and younger, apparently, but again, not sure) exacerbate the issue. It's seen to be a symbol of social degradation at times. We see a lot more sex around these days, but it's still handled as one of the great taboos. (The issue, I think, is teenage pregnancy, and the increase thereof. I think maybe it's that people knew about sex but didn't really do it because of social stigmas, whilst now it's not necessarily more acceptable, but it's more normative, so sexual knowledge is played out much more often. It's almost seen as something that should happen in your teens. The media plays with that idea all the time.)

re: older books, yeah, I noticed that too. Which again is all about where adulthood begins, and that educational transition that is now open to so many more people. It's interesting to me that I don't really see people talking about these things except in terms of the negative - over-sexed, teenage pregnancies, sexual abuse, 'slutty' behaviour and so on.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

In that video - she's not even OLD. She's middle-aged at the most! Which is another thing: perception of age in men and women.

(I realised that film tackles the subject of age variance quite often. American Beauty, and more recently, Venus [which I want to see, but I suspect will disappoint me a little with its message because I think the male lead takes a rather partonising approach to the female lead, and she's not as interested in him]; AB, actually, I from the POV of the male lead, but ultimately this becomes another vilification of Lolita because the director/producer decided not to consummate the relationship because that would have made the protagonist a negative. But again, even if the relationship had been consummated, that's not really what I'm looking for because the girl that the lead is infatuated with is basically Lolita, though a little older: she wants attention of some kind, but she's not ready for it.

But then, the other films I picked out all feature older women. YTMT is interesting because on the one hand there's the relationship is transient, but on the other, she's not a mother-figure to them in the least, which I liked about the film. I haven't seen the Belucci film, and I don't know how it handles the topic. I wanted to see Birth with Nicole Kidman because that's fairly controversial - a young boy tells her that he is the reincarnation of her dead husband.

I'm trying to think of more films, but I'm not there yet. Oh! Lost in Translation! I sort of love how sex-less that film is. And Memoirs of a Geisha - although the age difference is sort of glossed over in that text/film.)