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delgaThe thing about Lucas North is... you don't have to like what's happened to the characterisation there, but I give points for it at least making sense. John Bateman is a coward who took another man's life, and has played that double for so long that the line in his personality blurred. Vaughn is right; he doesn't remember. And now Lucas North as we know him has ceased to exist.
I, like most people, hated season 6. Loathed it. I hated the decisions Ros chose to make. But-- they were very Ros decisions. And Lucas has always been a little weak. He was never really made to be any sort of Alpha male, regardless of his desire to be so. Dimitri reminds me of season 7 Lucas - running around, getting things done, whilst someone else is in charge. Lucas needs directing; when you leave him to his own direction, he comes off the tracks. I am much more interested in John Bateman the coward than in Lucas North the hero. Russia was a sort of punishment, but he failed to learn from it. I said to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
hestia8 somewhere that Ros was a lying liar who knew she was lying; Lucas is a lying liar who has no self-awareness. Which is right: he isn't Lucas North.
As for Ruth: she's gone the whole gamut, now. From being the GCHQ mole, to a loyalist, to an outcast, to one of the undead, all the way round to that coldness that is inspired in the characters. That's the base of the show's character arcs; no-one goes untouched. And as someone who often gets dumped as being the moral compass, she is aware of where the road has taken her. So aware. And I think that's the underlying difference between the characters we champion and those that we don't - whether or not they are able to bear the brunt of their actions. That life in Greece - let's be a little pretentious and suggest that Ruth, unlike most, attained something of Elysium (whereas Ros and Lucas both hit Purgatory; Purgatory being Russia, apparently) - was a dream. It was Ruth's lie. And she didn't fight coming back as much as she could because she's a born spook. She faced that in 9x07. And that's why it had to be Jo who brought Ruth back, too, because they shared that horror, that sense of looking at themselves and not always being enamoured of what they could see.
This is pretty much why I can't listen to rallying cries of character assassination or plot inconsistency. a) The plot has always been inconsistent; b) the only instance that I can think of where a character's arc made absolutely no sense whatsoever is Juliet. That is the only instance. The character arcs on this show run through.
--
I have disliked the way the Vaughn plot was handled and drawn out. I think it's been poorly paced; I think it has been boring; I think the whole thing could have been orchestrated without Maya. I understand that Vaughn is the trigger to the schism in Lucas-and-John. I understand that; I think it necessary. But Maya, really? We know that's Lucas' weakness; apparently it's a leftover from John. But we know now what happened and it still doesn't really matter. From the moment they had some kid take the fall for Lucas' breach of security earlier in the season, there was no way they could play Lucas as an innocent. That was a nice bit of foreshadowing for the real Lucas North's murder.
--
And next week the two threads of this season come together. My money is on John Bateman dying. I hope they don't try to redeem him. I hope from this moment out they commit to his being a weakling. Not like Connie, who always knew. Not like Ros, who always knew. But John Bateman, who never did, and went willingly where he was led.
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Date: 2010-11-02 10:18 am (UTC)Better response later.
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Date: 2010-11-02 04:41 pm (UTC)Secondly, it's really much easier - and more interesting - to talk about Lucas in relation to his predecessors. I think a lot of the time I see other people's responses and just don't understand them - not even disagree, just not see their referents at all. But I think often we are talking about two different things (plot vs character) and trying to align them (which is what a proper narrative would achieve and Spooks sort of flails about on that front) where really one is much stronger than the other.
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Date: 2010-11-03 10:15 am (UTC)I am impressed by a) how close we were and b) how much of the stuff did get answered, as I have said.
I agree there, and at some point I will do a proper comparison of Ros/Lucas/Ruth etc, because their arcs really have been developed over the long term (and then you look at Harry and wonder wtf happened there). And frankly on Spooks sometimes it's not just worth looking at the plot because it's nonsensical (sugarhorse) or irrelevant (Dakar - part of the reason I was almost surprised we did get answers is because what actually happened *didn't* matter).
Anyway, now I am going to reply properly in another comment :)
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Date: 2010-11-02 01:09 pm (UTC)MORE SENSE LATER.
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Date: 2010-11-02 01:31 pm (UTC)I love this meta, I love love love the continuity in Lucas's character, finally - the submission to a stronger character, the self-justification and self-censorship, the explanation of Russia, the acknowledgment of Lucas's heroics and sacrifices since - all the way through that scene I was saying YES. And then! God this show can play me so well, I hated that it was a lie because I'd started to believe in Lucas again. Bastards!
Basically, M., you make so much sense, and I wish I could be as coherent and objective about it as you, instead of being annoyed because I can't help jumping at chances to not hate Lucas.
RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTH, OMG. I actually couldn't believe her past still exists! Her house! Nico! Flashbacks from another series! (IS THIS FIC?) I can't tell if the continuity/resolution this episode was really that great, or if I just thought it was because there's usually none at all?
From being the GCHQ mole, to a loyalist, to an outcast, to one of the undead, all the way round to that coldness that is inspired in the characters.
Oh god, I wish this didn't make me fear for Ruth's life. Where do you think she goes next?
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Date: 2010-11-02 04:50 pm (UTC)I hated that it was a lie because I'd started to believe in Lucas again.
Because Lucas isn't real. I have taken to using Lucas as a label for that part of John that errs towards kindness, but really, not a real person! However much we want him to be! I'm not saying there's no value to Lucas' acts, but they are sort of trumped by his assholery. (See also: Sir Harry.)
instead of being annoyed because I can't help jumping at chances to not hate Lucas.
I think it helps that whilst I liked Lucas, I never loved him. (See: Rosalind fuckin' Myers.) Also, I enjoy when good guys go bad, and then commit to that course of action. Don't flip flop on me! That is boring! And weak willed!
Where do you think she goes next?
QUEENDOM. Harry dies; Ruth takes over; world relations prosper.
Just kidding. No, actually, she still has a way to go. She still needs to accept who/what she has become, or do something to change who/what she has become. Ros had to die last year: she had attained a sort of peace. There was nowhere else for her to go. She has attained a level of ascension, and I think death - this time - was clemency. Ruth still has things to resolve.
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Date: 2010-11-03 02:32 pm (UTC)(shall? will? HELP.)
Because Lucas isn't real.
I know, I know, I know.... but seriously, considering how badly I usually react to surprise!deaths (Jo, Ben), I'm thinking it's no wonder I'm having trouble with this one. Not only is Lucas dead, he never fucking existed! How am I supposed to deal with that! I do like the John storyline for the most part - it's new, it's complex, it's certainly kept me entertained and more importantly kept me guessing - but there's a not small part of me tied up with mourning Lucas. While I don't feel it I can understand where a lot of fandom's anger is coming from.
And yes, I should get down with calling the man John already. It's difficult!
whilst I liked Lucas, I never loved him - Ah, that helps, yes. I felt the same about Ros. I liked her pretty much the most of any character, but I never really cared for her, for whatever reason.
I am so glad to hear you say that about Ruth! Seriously, I couldn't think past the full circle thing and I was getting worried. There was such a turning-point feeling in that hospital scene, where she's telling Harry she's fine. I could have easily believed she'd say "and that's why I'm leaving and never coming back" instead of "and that's why I'm going back to work".
WOMAN NEEDS TO RUN THINGS, FUCK YESSSSS.
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Date: 2010-11-02 01:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-02 04:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-03 10:17 am (UTC)I think maybe I missed the point the show was trying to make, but I just got really annoyed at the whole theory that three years is too long a time to grieve but that eight was too much, as if it wasn’t different for every fucking person. I do get fed up of being told by TV that I am weird for being able to get over things. The rest of it, though, you’re right. It would be interesting to compare her arc and Ros’.
It’s funny, sometimes, how consistent it can be by accident – I made a comment to tigertrapped yesterday about how we’ve basically come back around to the ‘why are these psychos in charge of national security’ conversations, and we were having those in series 3… But if you want inconsistency, look at Harry. I have been saying that for years, so I find it a bit frustrating when people are now all of a sudden saying the show is inconsistent.
Aaargh, Juliet, what was the point?
Re Vaughn, I just want to point you to these links where I was talking about spoilers pre-series, as I know you won't have read them:
http://hestia8.livejournal.com/547006.html#cutid1
http://hestia8.livejournal.com/547117.html#cutid1
The thing with Vaughn is, once the spoiler of Iain Glen’s name came up, I thought of him looking like he normally does – suave, nice suit, bit of a bastard (and was quite looking forward to that; I do like Iain Glen). I had started a fic in which he didn’t know Lucas but was just doing this because it was a job. And then there was a photo of him looking as he did in 901 etc, and I junked that fic. And THEN in 905, it turned out he DID look exactly like I’d originally expected, and that was amazing. And hilarious. So I quite liked the Vaughn plot for that reason. They managed to take my expectations, subvert them, have my believing it and then twist it back round so that my expectations were right, the bastards.
BUT I hate this thing with Maya. From about episode 2 or 3 I started worrying that she’d just been manipulated, that she was just there to be in danger, and as it turns out, it got so much worse with the Vaughn reveal, and it’s not like I didn’t know this show likes to pull shit like this and make it all about the white guy, but this is just fucking depressing. Writing a character in for the sole purpose of being able to put her in danger/threaten her so you can manipulate the white guy and create more angst? Ugh.
I think he’ll die. In one sense, I don’t want him to, because I would like a season where no-one from the grid dies. A fairly large part of me wants Harry to die as well; I’m done with that man. My ideal ending would be one in which Ruth rescues herself, and Harry and John kill each other. I think a more likely ending is either a) someone saves Harry, John dies or b) cliffhanger ending with gunshot wounds.