{ sugar & spice & all things nice. }

[delga]

So I'm well aware that I am a bit cranky re:Spooks reactions because a lot of the time I'm all, well, you only hated it so much because there wasn't enough shirtless shanks-a-bitch Lucas and you could easily turn to me and say, well, the only reason you liked it was because Ros was running around playing hero. To which: yeah, likely as not that is true, but the world is full of compelling male leads; I'm going to indulge in my cut-throat bitch for a while.

BUT I'm also aware that a lot of the time we're supposed to find Ros awesome because she has breasts. Like, if Lucas (or Adam, or Tom) had those violent tendencies, it's sort of part of that genre of men going around saving the day and having their personal lives shredded. But it's ~special~ with Ros because, hey, SHE SHOULDN'T BE SHANKING BITCHES SHE'S A ~LADY~ and so we love her because she's immediately contratype. And yes, I am the first person who loves it when Ros goes rogue with the dinnerware, but it's not my primary reason for liking her. She shares a trait that all my favourite female characters share: she is so competent. I mentioned it earlier in the season, that her mental fall-out has been handled so differently by the writers. While Lucas stood somewhat impotent on the staircase, unable to take the shot against Sarah, we already know Ros would have done it (oh, Jo). And there is a trend of emasculating your males in favour of your females these days which is SO PATRONISING because of course the only reason Ros is so great at her job is because Lucas is not so great at his. I see no reason why they can't both be badass at the same time. I'm thinking of the s7 finale at this point which was an amazing work of collaboration; and this year as they frantically pulsed through the hotel. I don't know why there's so little of this and I realised that the credits are a shitload of single shots. Depressing. Spies are lonely. I get it.

A lot of my dismay towards fandom as a whole (not just Spooksdom) springs from how I act as a fan. If I love a show, I make allowances for every character in that show. If I only like a couple of characters from something then in all likelihood I probably think that show is shit. (See: Supernatural.) Then I get upset when others don't operate the same way, and I know those are my issues and I account for them and try to tone down my temper. But I'm also MASSIVELY aware that a lot of people this week are going to be all, well, Lucas was written poorly this week, this is shit whereas I have always felt: Lucas? What? WHO GIVES A SHIT when others are making up for him? My argument gets undermined a little because the person picking up the slack is Ros, and there is an assumed bias on my part. And that bias exists but around that I can also say that this episode would have been equally enjoyable whoever was showing Lucas up.

I'm frustrated that Sarah was killed off, though not in the least bit surprised. I think this season would have been much stronger if they'd decided from the outset that the antagonism would be between Ros and Sarah and everyone else be damned. The most interesting parts of poking at Ros' shell this year have come when you've sat her next to a mirror, and Sarah, too, became more intriguing when pitted against Ros because it was a game of equals. Making her part of the honey trap weakened her. Her resolve was weakened by Lucas' supercock but she could happily throw Walker off a balcony? Yeah, thanks for that vulnerability. All the girl needed was a good shag and she'd soon come to her senses! WHATEVER. This storyline was insulting to Lucas? Sure, but he comes clean in the end, turning and letting Ros take Sarah in, and then being absolved of all responsibility when Sarah is killed. Boo hoo, poor old vestige of manpain. Fuck that; the plot was insulting to Sarah, just like last year 7x07 was a travesty on Connie. I went with both plots - crazy ladies tend to be ruthless - and I was on board with the idea that Sarah was wholly accountable for her actions. I would have been okay with her dying this week if she had been written to keep the courage of her convictions, if it had turned out that, hey, no, she really truly believed, fanatically, in her cause. But she didn't! She would rather have run off with Lucas than stick her ground and see this through. Pfffft.

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A lot of the time my reactions to a character are probably influenced more by how fandom perceives them. Fandom really thought the world of Adam Carter for the first couple years - and some till the end - but the more people pushed that shit on me, the less I was open to it. I was so tired of seeing Adam/Tom fics, you have no idea, mostly because no-one wanted to deal with The Wife. And eventually Fiona Carter was disappointing to me because she wasn't Ros (this feeling even before Ros appeared; I knew what kind of ferocity I wanted from Fiona and she bled out horrifically) but I'd still much rather have had people do something with her than Adam. I got over Adam very quickly, is all. And I am having a similar reaction with Lucas because all I can hear is talk about his potential for sexual prowess (with a generous helping of tortured history, because sexual sadism is all the rage) and I'm all, what? Are you for serious? Who cares? The answer being, people who are not me. I'm only ever interested in Lucas when the story is about the agility of his intellect which, to be fair, is 100x more compelling than Adam ever was. I don't dislike Lucas at all; I think he made poor decisions this year, but I also think he was incredibly lonely and Sarah seemed like a good prospect. After that, when you haven't had anyone for years and you released your wife into the care of another, why would you be willing to give up what you have, as poor and low as it is? So Lucas' impulses make sense, in much the same way that Adam's impulses with Ana (however stupid because, yo, he was also sleeping with Ros) made sense. Adam Carter wanted to save everybody and couldn't save his own wife. Lucas, I assume, just wants comfort. My issues with the Lucas/Sarah plot spring from how Sarah was treated in that relationship. If both sides were playing cat and mouse it could have escalated deliciously. But each side was diminished by that relationship, and to what end? What the hell were anyone's intentions at the end of this? Sarah's death here is no less pointless than if she'd killed her self two episodes back.

Hmm, what was I saying? Oh, right. So, yes, I actually enjoy Lucas a lot, but fandom's obsession with him drives me insane. Obsession to the point where interest in all others is excluded? What? And I get that we don't have that much spread these days - jeez, Harry, what the fuck? - but. God! Fandom is so exclusivist. And Ros fans are no fucking better. When I talk about the finale - lol, no, this isn't actually that post - I'm basically going to make a handful of points referring to the plot as a whole and then I'm going to dissect Ros' entire character arc, and I'm aware how one-sided that's going to be. But Ros was showcased this season, and this was her episode,and so I do feel it inevitable that my talk will be centred on her because there wasn't a whole lot else going on. So I know that quite often I am that breed of Ros fan. But I get equally annoyed at this troop of fans because often I feel like I'm sitting here wondering about character motivations and competence and compartmentalising and other fans are falling for that trap in which Ros is amazing by virtue of being female. So, I'm a snob, too, and that has its own implications/issues, and I'm an apologist, too. I think it's great that we can sit here and sincerely have the sum of our feelings on Ros be that she is amazingly violent. I'm not of that camp which is necessarily against having female characters be brutal. But. That's not the sum of her character. I'm not annoyed that others aren't as irritatingly meta about the character because your relationship to fandom should be what makes you happy, but then again, I am frustrated about the sphere of response because I get very little from it and I want to participate. Again, these are my issues and not fandom's. Trust me, je suis well aware of this as A Fact.

I don't know; I'm going in circles here and my actual (less coherent but more direct) post on this topic is sitting in a text file on my laptop at home. (Yes, I'm doing this on my phone during my insane commute to Cambridge. It is cold, I am at Ely, and my phone can't keep up with how fast I'm typing. I feel like Sam Carter wearing that super-strength armband, waiting for the words to appear on screen minutes after I've typed them.) (If you get that reference: this is why we're flisters.) I had something to say about how Ros in no way should be a role model because she is clearly insane and because the violence in her isn't something to aspire to, but fandom delights in that aspect of her whilst sometimes - all the time - I feel the genius of Ros Myers, the parts that are admirable fuse her clarity of thought with clarity of purpose. She makes a decision; she acts on it. She is not distracted easily; she is excellent at what she does. And those ARE admirable qualities, but if they turn you into a psychotic headcase, is it worth it? That's the real question re: whether love of this character is justified. Because I love her but would I want to be her? No. Ros, to an extent, doesn't exist. She is at times more cariacature than character. But her efficiency is something I covet. I am not a superspy; I am an administrator. I do not live spy fantasies through Ros Myers. But I do aspire to that level of organisation in my life. I do aspire to that level of competence. But I've dropped off point again, and I need to wrap this up. Actual Ros-arc discussion in my next post. Lol, in a post where I lament fandom's tunnel vision it has come back to being All About Ros because I'm a hypocrite and because I have no organisation of thought in my head. Most of this should probably be in the next post.

Apologies for the typos, guys, I can't go back and fix them whilst typing on my phone because it's quite fiddly. I'll come back and edit, and maybe post the first version of this which featured more swearing, less tact, and more...idk. I think my points were clearer. So. I will fix this later. In the meantime, I'm probably going to swing between cranky and ecstatic with fan reaction to the finale.

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edit: Typos fixed, I hope. Below the cut is my original post. Same topic; more capslock.

So, I'm that person on your flist who is like, what? Who gives a shit about Lucas fucking North when ROS MOTHERFUCKIN' MYERS is going around shooting bitches in the leg?

And. Like. Okay, I guess a lot of my frustration with a character actually probably comes from my dislike of how FANDOM treats that character rather than the showrunners. Because if a showrunner makes a character decision that I disagree with that's - it's not out of character. That's a canonical decision. Therefore it's IN CHARACTER. So. You can hate that Lucas North was so head-fucked that he managed to fall for Sarah but you can't say it's out of character. Or. I can hate that Ros gave Ruth up but I'm like, fuck, that's SO IN CHARACTER! Or. FUCK WHAT DID THEY DO TO FIONA CARTER FFS OR CONNIE JAMES WHAT.

I was SO OVER Adam Carter before 90% of fandom. And I hated a lot of how fandom LUUUURVED Adam Carter and luuuuuurrrrrrved getting him to fuck Tom Quinn because they didn't want to deal with Fiona Carter. And even when I wasn't overly fond of Jo, I hated how horrible fandom was about her. And now: ugh, fandom, stop making me dislike Lucas! Because I don't dislike Lucas. Except for the part where I'm fed up of hearing about him when there's so many more interesting things going on with other characters (ahemROSahem).

But my love of Ros is not immune to this phenomenon either because FUCK I HATE MOST ROS FANS. Seriously. The ones who will talk about her to the exclusion of all others. I hate that in myself. But when I finally actually talk about 8x08 in absolute full, that's what I'm going to do. I'm just going to talk mostly about Ros. Because that's all that episode is to me, really.

BUT LIKE: I do NOT think anybody truly should be looking at ROSALIND MYERS and thinking, fuck yeah, what a role model! Because: obviously the woman is a psychopath. Things I admire in her are things that I do kind of aspire to - not taking bullshit; not being subject to your own fear; being clear-headed in the process of making decisions. I think it's AWESOME that she shoots bitches in the leg and kills people with forks because she's SO COMPETENT so what I love is that competence. The murderous-intent part is not exactly something to aspire to and I guess for kudos sometimes it's like, hey, here's our resident superhero, she is amazing because she can do all these things AND SHE HAS BOOBS. (Like: we're supposed to be impressed with Ros because she is a woman. She is actually FAR MORE impressive because of all the things in her that motivate her which are influenced kind of by the way she was raised in her gender but are mostly gender-neutral. But we're supposed to find her awesome because she has ovaries whereas if a guy was doing it, it would be less remarkable or something because masculinity is about hunter-killer whatever? UGH THAT IS SUCH BULLSHIT KUDOS AND I HATE THAT FANDOM LAPS THAT SHIT UP. Ros isn't impressive because she exists despite being a woman. Ros is awesome because she compartmentalises like an OCD sufferer employed as a librarian and all her competence is bred from that.) But of all the characters in this show, has there ever been one so consistent? I think the old-schoolers - Danny and Zoe, and Tessa of course. Ros has a redemption arc. I do not think that the majority of Ros fans - or such that I encounter - are thinking about her redemption arc. YOUR FANNISH BEHAVIOUR IS SO SUB PAR STFU.

I am basically an enormous, superior bovine who sits around feeling superior to other bullshit-breeding cockhead bovines who also find themselves superior to the rest of fandom or SOMETHING. UGH. I don't know. I'm CRANKY about shit.

Comments

[hestia8.livejournal.com]

Have responded to the first part in a separate post on my lj.

A lot of the time my reactions to a character are probably influenced more by how fandom perceives them.
>>> I’m fairly sure there are people who pretty much hate me for a) hating Adam and b) enjoying his death scene a lot.

I was so tired of seeing Adam/Tom fics, you have no idea, mostly because no-one wanted to deal with The Wife.
>>> I liked Fiona, but she hasn’t really had a lasting impact, if you get what I mean? Also, I’m not convinced the show wanted to deal with The Wife.

(also, I could off here into what is the deal with there being almost no Ben fic or why so little Zaf fic, but that's another post)

And I am having a similar reaction with Lucas because all I can hear is talk about his potential for sexual prowess (with a generous helping of tortured history, because sexual sadism is all the rage) and I'm all, what? Are you for serious? Who cares?
>>> I have said this elsewhere, but I just don’t get Lucas’ supposed sexual desire, let alone the rest of it.

Adam Carter wanted to save everybody and couldn't save his own wife.
>>> I’d say that Adam wanted the glory that came from saving everybody, but I’m a bit cynical about him. YOU MIGHT HAVE NOTICED.

Lucas, I assume, just wants comfort. My issues with the Lucas/Sarah plot spring from how Sarah was treated in that relationship. If both sides were playing cat and mouse it could have escalated deliciously. But each side was diminished by that relationship, and to what end? What the hell were anyone's intentions at the end of this?
>>> YES YES YES

When I talk about the finale - lol, no, this isn't actually that post - I'm basically going to make a handful of points referring to the plot as a whole and then I'm going to dissect Ros' entire character arc, and I'm aware how one-sided that's going to be.
>>> Butbutbut, the plots are shit. It’s not worth spending loads of time on them, because they don’t stack up. So you (I) end up obsessing over characters.

I'm not annoyed that others aren't as irritatingly meta about the character because your relationshop to fandom should be what makes you happy, but then again, I *am* frustrated about the sphere of response because I get very little from it and I want to participate. Again, these are my issues and not fandom's. Trust me, je suis well aware of this as A Fact.
>> I would love there to be more Spooks meta (if only so I didn’t feel so guilty about basically being the one on the soapbox), but also, I need to damn well finish my own!

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

UGH, I'm a horrible person. Don't hang your head in shame; the majority of my feedback sessions are AND ROS IS GOING TO CHOKE A BITCH FUCK YEAH so I'm equally guilty or whatever. Shame was not the intention.

Meh. I don't think she's dead, so that doesn't fuss me in the least.

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

Sorry for this reply of semi-epic proportions.
...hahaha. HAHAHA. Oh girl. Just wait for my post. You've no idea.

There is a lot in her story that was about fatherhood but I'm going to suggest that by this point it's more subtle than that; that the link back to her father is more tenuous; that the things she learned post-Yalta - death, and rebirth - severed some connections. I don't know. I don't know that it's that straightforward. I don't think her crutches are so tangible.

But. All this for the train journey home, I suppose.

[perverseparagon.livejournal.com]

I feel like Sam Carter wearing that super-strength armband, waiting for the words to appear on screen minutes after I've typed them.) (If you get that reference: this is why we're flisters.)

ROFL! There will be more, but right now, LOL

[odainath.livejournal.com]

Right, well I've never thought of myself like that before. Complete eye-opener. You are right, of course, I generally look at Ros to the detriment of everyone else, but when I actually take a look closer and find out the reason for myself doing this, it's probably the same as yours.

Ros is good at her job; competent, able to take a shot that she knows will kill a colleague and can remove herself to make difficult decisions.

Is there anyone else in Spooks who could do that? No. Hence the reason I like her, also hence the reason I push everyone to the back.

I should read your stuff more often; it makes me think of why I perceive things a certain way.

[zulu-ottawa.livejournal.com]

I'm only ever interested in Lucas when the story is about the agility of his intellect which, to be fair, is 100x more compelling than Adam ever was. THANK YOU. (I'll admit I had a bout of shallowness in the early days of S7) But now, all that and people's sudden need for Lucas to have some sort of relationship constantly annoys me. In my mind, he is just asexual. To me, he doesn't need anyone else. It almost makes him seem weakened when he does. Not to say that human contact is somehow a reflection of weakness, because I can understand why everything with Sarah happened, it made sense, canonically, with his history (he's bound to be incredibly lonely), as you've said, but it's just that in my mind Lucas has always been a solitary being, maybe because of those 8 years, and it frankly seems a little uncomfortable when he is in a relationship. This isn't helped by the zero chemistry factor between him and Sarah, but maybe I'm seeing it that way because of my previous aversions. Really, Lucas+relationship=me ceasing to care.

It is sort of the same deal with Ros. I see her as solitary, because of her competence, her coldness, the strict compartmentalization of her life, etc. She just doesn't seem like the kind of person to tolerate a day-to-day romance with another person. She's too fucked up. They are all too fucked up The banalities of life, just normality itself, would kill them. I love Ros, but not simply because she's a woman. I think that people magnify that aspect of it, that because she's female all of these things she does and the psychosis of her behaviour and personality are somewhat amplified and seen as 'special' or she's labelled as a 'strong' woman. Yes, she is strong. But it's because she's so complex, and beneath that 'strength' does she really have such fortitude? She can make snap decisions, which are viewed and reacted to by others as cold or calculating, but we've seen the guilt she feels for them. (Jo, as an example) She may gloss it over in the presence of another person, but under it she's actually quite insecure with herself, I think. She's portrayed in public to be this tough, take-no-shit ice-cold being, but in private she isn't really. She seeks approval in a very subtle way (her father, Harry), she suppresses her fear, and in some cases that can be good, but in the long run it's detrimental. She's got an incredibly complicated mind and personality which is quite hard to make sense of. I don't think someone who is in fact that unstable under the veneer should be seen as a role model, no. If you look at the public Ros, it's a very isolated person; if you look at the private Ros, it's a very isolated person as well, but in a different sense. Publicly, she isolates herself from other people; privately, she isolates herself from herself. It's a dangerous and vicious circle, and to model yourself on that is a frankly extremely stupid thing to do. Go ahead, admire qualities but not the whole picture, because why would you want to be that miserable?

And yeah, thanks writers, the spy's life is shit. They're lonely. We get it.

Oof quite a rant, sorry about that! :) But thanks for this meta, it is wonderful to think about these things intelligently.